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Spearfish Sd,USA

Hi all,

I was originally thinking that I would grow the 2350 Tiger King but because of rumors that conveyed that it was ridiculously heat sensitive and all the vines and leaves would burn to a crisp, I then started to worry that because of the extreme environmental conditions that I grow in (potential snow in late May, 105 degrees in early June and potential snow in early September). I was worried that if I grew the 2350 that all the leaves and vine tips would incinerate and it would be a bust year because I wouldn't be able to grow anything which would be a huge bummer.

Wondering if this is a legitimate concern or not anything to worry about. Of those who grew the 2350 before how heat sensitive was yours?

Thanks!

1/10/2022 3:56:18 PM

Georgia

Never grew it, but the beautiful 1883 Bayuk progeny of the 2350 was grown in Columbia, Kentucky. Now, Kentucky is not the devil's backyard, but it is not a pushover when it comes to heat. Columbia, Kentucky averages 89 degrees in July.

1/10/2022 4:16:20 PM

Georgia

Never grew it, but the beautiful 1883 Bayuk progeny of the 2350 was grown in Columbia, Kentucky. Now, Kentucky is not the devil's backyard, but it is not a pushover when it comes to heat. Columbia, Kentucky averages 89 degrees in July.

1/10/2022 4:16:21 PM

Bethlehem CT

Me personally, I've never bought into the heat tolerant thing. I am sure others may disagree.

1/10/2022 4:25:18 PM

Bethlehem CT

I should have said heat sensitive, They are the same cultivar of the same species. Differences in heat and cold tolerances between seeds should be negligible.

1/10/2022 4:29:37 PM

Bethlehem CT

I should probably explain myself. In plants it is possible to have different levels of hardiness among the same species. In fact people who grow woody ornamentals know that there are certain trees that are sourced from a northern source and have proven hardiness. A red maple seedling taken and lifted from North Florida would likely not exhibit enough cold tolerance to thrive in my climate. Perhaps it might not even survive. So given a seeds 'provenance' (where it is from) determines much about it's hardiness. It takes many,many generations of breeding before the cold hardiness/heat tolerance can be consistent and reliable. Sometimes you will find an individual specimen of a species that seems to be hardier, for example the Chicago fig. That specimen is then propagated asexually through cuttings, tissue culture etc. The seedlings from a chicago fig would likely not demonstrate any more significant cold hardiness than any other fig.
I do believe it is possible to eventually produce a line of Atlantic Giant Seeds that are more heat tolerant. It would take several generations of someone (in a hot climate) growing out many seedlings and selectively choosing the ones that exhibit the best tolerance to heat. After many years a seed would be considered heat tolerant if it was known to come from the line of heat tolerant seeds that were developed by that breeder. We're pretty much all growing the same seed lines, as far as I know there hasn't been any consistent breeding for heat tolerance by a grower or group of growers.

1/10/2022 5:26:25 PM

Colorado

Sounds like theyre small leaved and 3 dimensionally aggressive as are a lot of 1501vw plants.A lot of fast growing plants burn easily.Should make a good wind plant.Any wind in spearfish?

1/11/2022 1:11:01 AM

Muddy Waters

Yes I agree heat sensitive is just illusion.Its more about soil NPK etc levels. also You need shade netting to cool the environment.Pumpkin plants shut down at 90 degrees.Cool the environment with shade netting.Go be yond the growing area.Shade netting will cool your area by 20 degrees.I have proof of this growing in a trailer park.It would take decades for seeds to become heat tolerant by acclimation. Stop fertilizing at temps over 88 degrees.just my NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION. Flush soil with water in high temps.

1/11/2022 7:17:36 AM

Muddy Waters

You are suffering from extreme weather changes. Stabilize the environment my friend

1/11/2022 7:19:34 AM

Deer Park, WI

Big Moon- while i generally agree with your ideas regarding the process for selective breeding for heat tolerance, I will respectfully disagree about observed differences among various breeding lines in today's stock.

My wife and I are of the same species and cultivar (but differing family trees, thank goodness). Her temperature tolerance range is magnitudes of order narrower than mine. Sure, one can strike this up to a fundamental gender difference dictated by hormonal profile uniqueness, but that doesnt destroy the argument that temperature sensitivity differences exist within nearly identical genomes.

Speaking to experience, i've grown 1501 x self progeny and can speak to the impressive plant vigor as well as relative temperature extreme weakness characteristics. It is real compared to other non-1501 pure progeny. But does this weakness put it at a disadvantage for final weight? No one knows.

a couple things- those advocating for managing environmental influences are correct. As are those who recognize these characteristics in this particular genetic line are indeed genetic. The question to ask is "does temperature extreme susceptibility outweigh the plant vigor and other "racehorse" attributes of this genetic line to the extent that you should look elsewhere to another seed line with stronger lump sum advantage?"

This is a hard question to answer. As usual, so many variables at play and no practical way to tease out a reliable outcome.

Long way of saying, imo, plant the 2350 and mitigate stressors to the best of your ability.

1/11/2022 8:51:55 AM

Kutztown, PA

First thing I would do is change the seed name from "Tiger King" to "Snow Leopard" which is a much "cooler" name. Also, shouldn't a guy from Sd be pheasant hunting right now instead of thinking about giant pumpkins :).

Anyway - ditto on big moon's "After many years....." and Mr. Presley's "it's more soil levels...." Regarding developing a line of heat tolerant plants there are just to many variables to consider and there may be trade offs. For example "does heat tolerance increase or decrease pumpkin weight". I think as long as breeding is for weight, we might just have to tolerate some deficiencies. Some times you just cant have your cake and eat it too!

1/11/2022 8:58:07 AM

Diamond, Ohio

No heat issues on my 2350. Great plant. Grew a pretty nice pumpkin too.

1/11/2022 10:12:05 AM

Columbia, Kentucky

I grew the 1883 Bayuk (2350x self) its the largest official pumpkin grown in Kentucky and current state record. As far as the 2350 goes it does have some leaf burn issues but not to the point I would ever say I wouldn't grow it. I'm actually running two of my 1883 this year. As far as heat sensitivity, I believe some plants are more heat sensitive.i have a YouTube channel "growing giants with Scott ". Out of 4 plants the 2350 was the only to have leaf burn. All plants were treated equally. Hope this helps, Scott

1/11/2022 12:50:49 PM

Bethlehem CT

Joze you would surely win in any horticultural debate with me so I am not trying to get into one. In fact I really don't care that much about this as it is one of those topics that is OK to agree to disagree. So after this post I will bow out.
I just have a few more comments and questions that I would like to make first.
Can the 1501 really be considered a breeding line yet? Aren't pretty much all the genetics today from the 2145 even the 1501?
The example you give about your wife suffering in the heat, does that mean that all your kids will suffer in the heat too?
Some will, some won't. You would have to self your wife more generations and breed for that trait to solidify it in the offspring. So to say a certain seed can be counted on for heat tolerance because it's parent exhibited that trait is not really fair or honest advertising. (this is the very reason I felt it was important to make this point in the beginning)
There are so many reasons a plant can exhibit leaf burn besides simply saying that a seed has heat resistance in it's genes.
Soils exhibit different levels of available water even in the same patch.
Salt levels in the soil also play a factor in a plants susceptibility to burn.
Perhaps it is the very vigor that the 1501 exhibits that causes the issue of leaf burn. All that new tender growth without roots to support them is a recipe for leaf burn.

Much of the heat issues with plants can be managed with cultural techniques, like shading the vine tips or have sprinklers turn on intermittently during the hottest hours of the day. (which is what I do)

1/11/2022 1:46:57 PM

Grittyville, WA

There are lots of agronomy videos that talk about the soil influencing the plants ability to handle heat stress.

Healthy roots should give you a bigger final weight and keep the plant going during heat.

One thing I didnt realize is: plants cool the same way we do, by evapoation. So heat can be worse when combined with high humidity. Before this I thought that high humidity must help maintain turgor. It might, but then the heat stress would just be hidden. In other words, a plant in high humidity, might be too hot but not wilting. I didnt realize this before. One agronomy guy said some crops like temps plus humidity to be less than 140. So 90 at 60% humidity would be stressful.

1/11/2022 2:40:43 PM

Kutztown, PA

A pumpkin in essence is really nothing more than a giant uterus. Let's say that inside the uterus there are a 100 seeds growing. The seeds are nothing more than brothers and sisters.
Just because a few of those siblings are prone to sunburn doesn't mean all 100 will be. Each seed is a complete reshuffling of the genetic deck not an identical twin.

1/11/2022 2:41:52 PM

Saegertown Pa.

I don’t think it has any thing to do with the 1501 line, I think you will have more problems with heat tolerance on some self seeds. You take the good and the bad when it comes to growing self seeds.

1/11/2022 2:54:15 PM

Grittyville, WA

"You cant have your cake abd eat it too". Yes, suppose the 2350 uterus (lol) has a superior desire to pull potassium out of the plant into the fruit. Then you'd see a wilting affect due to the superiority of the fruit, not the inferiority of the plant. (Like in humans a petite mom having twins or something, even if she was otherwise normal & healthy she would appear to be stressed a bit.)
Genetic differences: I saw once with sister plants in the same mound of dirt where one plant had greener leaves but the other plant had twice as many pumpkins. Whatever was making the one plant a lighter green color wasnt hurting the pumpkkn growth. I could speculate that one plant was favoring pulling magnesium out of the soil (the darker green plant), and the other was favoring the calcium/potassium (the lighter green plant which produced 600 lbs more.) There are genetic differences between sister plants, for sure. (Just as much as in humans, once again...) Which traits matter, only the scale knows :)

1/11/2022 2:59:32 PM

Kutztown, PA

Since each seed is the product of a reshuffle of the available genetic material it makes sense that a "self seed" is the product of shuffling only "half the deck". Since that's the case you will have twice the chance of success or failure depending on what your trying to accomplish. If that seed produces a big pumpkin then - yeah! If that seed produces sunburned leaves and a big pumpkin - yeah! If that seed produces navel oranges and one big pumpkin - yeah! My guess is that most folks who grow giant pumpkins would rub SPF 50 Sunscreen on every leaf if they thought the plant would produce a bigger pumpkin.

1/11/2022 4:19:18 PM

Muddy Waters

Good stuff I learned a lot

1/11/2022 7:32:14 PM

Muddy Waters

Another thing to consider comparing plants in the same garden same season.The soil is not 100% uniform in fertility.I think that would be impossible to accomplish.You have hot spots as spreading amendments and fertilizing is hard to keep uniform.Compost & past seasons are not 100% even.

1/11/2022 7:38:05 PM

Spearfish Sd,USA

Thanks everyone! Very informative!

1/11/2022 10:46:13 PM