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nOVA sCOTIA

Hi Joe. Just wondering what you would suggest as a general application rate for Ureamate per 50 gallons of water. Thank you :)

3/5/2021 7:58:14 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Hey Carl, hope you are doing well. I had an extensive meeting and discussions with our Stoller Rep last year and we talked extensively about dosage. Obviously it depends on patch size, plant size and stage of growth but he recommended to me to feed at 250 ppm or less three times per week.

So, I filled my 250 gallon tank and mixed in Ureamate until I got that that ppm reading.

Someone else here (CountryBoy I think) was mixing 1 tablespoon per 50 gallons of water for every watering. That sure adds up, if you are watering every day.

Here is the label.

https://stollerusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/HMUM5-10-27_25LB_BagLabel.pdf

3/5/2021 11:51:03 AM

The problem with adding something like Ureamate to your garden is that it has many nutrients in it and the amount cannot be controlled. As an example, if your potassium is high why would you add a product that has potassium in it? Same goes for all the other nutrients. If you have an area where you don't do soil test such as a small flower garden, then it would be okay to use,

3/5/2021 2:29:04 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Hi Glenn . Everything is pretty good here how about you ?. Thanks for the reply's gentleman

3/6/2021 7:48:11 AM

Deer Park, WI

Hi there. Ureamate: one product to rule them all.

My answer to your question would be pretty straightforward if you are growing in a hydroponic system. However, since we grow in soil, which contains a highly variable nutrient reservoir, the answer is a very unsatisfying "it depends".

There are two ways we can approach plant nutrition. Both of which are understood and practiced in the farming world: "Feed the crop" and "Feed the soil".

Feeding the crop means somewhat disregarding the nutrients stored in the soil and simply providing what you believe the plant/fruit needs exclusively as fertilizer before/throughout the season. Nutrient amounts are hypothetically easy to calculate...determine total biomass weight (plant plus fruit), adjust for moisture, and break total dry weight down into nutrient constituents. What you are left with is plant nutrition uptake. Hypothetical example: 1000lbs of dry biomass, of which 5% of that is nitrogen...1000lbs x 5% = 50lbs of nitrogen in the biomass. As such, apply 50lbs of N fertilizer throughout the season to meet plant need. (this also assumes 100% efficiency in root uptake) Voila.

If it were only that simple. Any product used to meet plant nutritional needs would have to be designed with exactly perfect nutrient ratios to fulfill the above described scenario. Anybody know exact nutrient percentages for the spectrum of plant nutrition in AG's? anyone know of a product designed with the perfect ratio of AG plant nutrient needs, such that we can just dribble on this mix from day 1 to 100 and not have excess/deficiency in any one of the 11-12 important nutrients?

3/6/2021 8:58:20 AM

Deer Park, WI

The other method of plant nutrition is feeding your soil. This involves testing before hand to identify soil nutrient levels, correcting deficiencies, and ensuring adequate levels of nutrient to meet demands of the crop cycle. Fine tuning the levels of nutrient to exact specifications of the plant is less important, because the soil acts as a nutrient warehouse. Conceivably, plants and microbes are "smart enough" to grab what they need off the shelves...so long as the relative amount of groceries on these shelves are not overwhelmed by a single product (read: ridiculously excessive levels of any one nutrient).

3/6/2021 8:58:24 AM

Deer Park, WI

In the "feed the soil" paradigm, a general req for a product like UreaMate runs into the exact scenario Uncanny described. I cannot, in good conscious, offer a req for this product or any like it because doing so may exacerbate an excess nutrient. Why is this bad??? What if a delivery truck full of groceries arrives every day for the next 100 days containing, among other things, plant-based meat, but nobody is buying plant-based meat because it tastes like...well, not meat. Soon that non-meat piles up on the store shelves. Early on, there's room on the shelves for the extra "meat". At some point tho, the extra non-meat starts squeezing out shelf space for other desirable groceries...delicious steaks, milk, cookies, etc. At some point, there's so much non-meat on the shelves, the customers cannot even find the staples. So much non meat, soooooo soooooo much non meat. Despite there being food on the shelves, the customers are going hungry because they cannot find the steaks, milk, cookies.

This is the real life consequence of the "More-on" philosophy. That one can keep putting more on without consequences. The consequences are real. Plant nutrients compete with each other for uptake, especially when excessive levels crowd out other nutrients that are not excessive.

I've looked at literally hundreds, possibly thousands of giant pumpkin soil tests and I see the results of this first hand. There comes a point where doing nothing is superior to doing something. But from a psychological perspective, its just not how we are wired. we have to do something, right?

Focus on the nutrients that leach...nitrogen, sulfur, boron. The others hang out in the soil waiting for their turn to be added to the shopping cart.

3/6/2021 9:07:13 AM

Deer Park, WI

Long winded non-answer to your question, Carl. And I apologize if it disappoints. I'm not here to earn "internet likes" tho. I'm here to educate folks on the reality of soils and pumpkin nutrition in the interest of raising all boats with the tide. I am not a fan of "all in one" fertilizer products unless you are a hands-off set-it-and-forget-it grower. Knowing you and your success in the patch (I envy it), fine tuning the dials with single-ingredient products with the guidance of reliable soil and tissue testing is the recipe for scale-busting, personal-best achieving success.

To take this a step further, if anyone, including "profesesionals" were to offer dosing recommendations for products like these, I would ask "can you explain your logic behind this recommendation?" Well that's what the label says. "Oh really? how does the label know what my specific soil and/or plant needs are?" ***blank stare***

Not being a pompous prick here. I just like to ask the Why/how questions. Make me a believer.

Anyways, before I jump off the soapbox, thank you for the question. I appreciate the opportunity to share my analytical process, even if the response is not met with favor. And if you'd like to send me a soil test to review sometime, I'd be happy to do so.

3/6/2021 9:16:16 AM

Deer Park, WI

Final point...since this thread will go into the archives like all others, I'd like to address my area of interest relative to my success in the patch.

Surely someone with the appearance of knowledge in the soil fertility space must have solidified their place in the HOF by virtue of scale-breaking yearly pumpkin performance.

Nope. I've been fairly criticized over the years for my palty 1422lb personal best, whilst watching my neighbors, Chris Stevens (2010 WR 1810.5), Lorelee Zywiec (2109lbs), & Pete Midthun (2091lbs) crush locally.

I foolishly brought pythium into my patch over a decade ago. I'm also growing 4 young boys, one with special needs. Persistent disease and time constriction are my two greatest limiting factors.

It so happens that absence of disease and unlimited time are probably the two most important factors driving success in the patch.

I look forward to the day when I have more control over these factors. And hopefully can justify my "knowledge" of soils/fertility with the GPC jacket to prove it.

someday.

3/6/2021 9:35:04 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

Thank you Joe !! I would love to send you my soil test results this spring !! If you don't mind i will be in touch. Thanks again . Carl

3/6/2021 10:34:35 AM

Syracuse, NY

The Doctor is INformative -
and good for what Ailts ya!
DOE!!! eg

3/6/2021 2:18:13 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

ahaaaaa He is :)

3/6/2021 2:52:27 PM

Anchorage Alaska

Joe, always a pleasure reading ,what you have to say..very helpful...thanks

3/7/2021 12:09:56 AM

Bethlehem CT

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Joze. About your final thought, I find that it is a very common human misconception to judge a person by their personal bests.
Take this as an example; Picture a track and field high jump coach, someone who has coached numerous jumpers and some have even attained Olympic status with this trainers help. The trainer teaches all the right drills and all the right exercises and help their students perfect their form going over the bar. Yet the trainer might not have ever possesed the world record themselves. Does that take away from their work as a coach? On the same token perhaps the person they trained would never have attained the world record with out that coach's expert help.
Look at Edison and Tesla. Tesla was the idea man and Edison was the businessman who figured out how to bring a product to market and to promote it. Some of the very smartest and most informative people that have helped in the sport of giant pumpkin growing do not have personal bests that reflect their contribution. In fact some have never grown a giant pumpkin at all.

3/7/2021 7:41:30 AM

Cape Breton Nova Scotia

Joe what is your opinion on foilar feeding?
I've been growing since 2016 and my way of doing things the first three years was the more-on way. I overloaded my patch with compost and aged manure. I started taking soil samples two years ago only to find out that nearly all my levels were excessively high. I sent you my soil samples for the last couple years for your advice. Your recommendation was to add the nitrogen required (urea) and 10lbs of elemental sulfur per 1000 sgft to try and lower my ph. Other than that just water. Like you said were not wired like that,,it was hard to resist adding anything to my soil but I followed your advice and grew a new PB 1388lbs..550lbs over my previous PB. The only only thing I did add to my soil as a drench was compost tea and humic/fulvic acid. I couldn't resist and felt I should be doing something other than just watering so I started foilar feeding seaweed/humic and some comfrey tea in small amounts. I was also thinking about trying ureamate as a foilar spray this year. Do foilar applications affect the levels in your soil like drenching?

3/7/2021 8:02:16 AM

Deer Park, WI

Thank you, John. I really appreciate your contribution to the thread. Indeed, I feel more satisfaction from the knowledge I've shared than the pumpkins I've scaled in the last 20 years.

Jody- I'm humbled by your testimony and thrilled you were able to achieve a new PB. I read questions like yours and think, how can I give a short, simple answer to a (seemingly) simple question? And then I start to consider my answer, and before long its like, ah crap, this is gonna be another long soapbox rant. so here goes.

Foremost, I'd like to draw a line between foliar applied nutrients and everything else that's not a plant nutrient. This is a big deal to me. Cuz we can spray a lot of stuff on our leaves and I believe its important to understand what's being sprayed and what goal is being achieved by doing so.

In direct response to your last question, no, foliar plant nutrient applications are highly unlikely to impact soil levels. Simply cannot put enough on through the sprayer to move the needle.

As it relates to foliar plant nutrients, I personally do not believe that any plant nutrient that is NOT considered a micronutrient (boron, iron, copper, zinc, manganese, molybdenum) should not be applied via foliar. And possibly the micros too.

3/7/2021 4:20:07 PM

Deer Park, WI

We simply cannot apply a meaningful quantity of macros (Nitrogen, phos, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur) via foliar application. And if we tried to, we'd burn our leaves to death. Many of these are salts that prematurely age leaves. I would much rather the plant take these nutrients up thru the system designed via evolution: roots. And since we spend hundreds of dollars on biologicals (mycorrhizae) to enhance our root systems, why not just let the plant and soil bugs do their job? Further, we are typically not cost/size limited in getting our soils to ***perfect*** levels of nutrients. Therefore, we really do not need foliar application of nutrients to drive plant nutrition. Unless there are some serious problems with soil balance.

ok, so there's my take on foliar nutrient applications. If you got lost in the post above, here's my takeaway punchline: i dont like foliar nutrient applications for giant pumpkins unless there's a severe micronutrient deficiency that needs to be addressed (manganese?). This would extend to the use of Ureamate. Perhaps in season tissue testing could reveal a broad scale justification for foliar application of a mix like this. But if the plant doesnt need all these nutrients, why stress the leaves?

3/7/2021 4:23:44 PM

Deer Park, WI

Now on to everything else foliar applied that's not a plant nutrient. Or maybe has nutrients plus other stuff that's exciting: fish/seaweed extracts for example. For those with dialed-in soil tests, as well as those who've got work to do yet, I dont have a problem with foliar applied products. I think the jury is still out on whether foliar applied products, whether compost teas, fish emulsions, various biologicals, humic/fulvic, or <insert your favorite product here> formulation> adds pounds to the end result of your effort. It makes us feel better when we foliar apply a non-nutrient formulation (I suffer from this too, count me as one of you). We all believe that it "cant hurt" to spray this stuff and have some inkling that it may in fact help that fruit pack on more pounds. Does it tho? Who knows. In the absence of a definitive answer, I still am not discouraging the use of foliar non-nutrients. Aside from the leaf burn issue of salts, I don't yet see the downside of foliar application of these products.

3/7/2021 4:32:32 PM

Deer Park, WI

And maybe that's the remedy for those with nearly perfect dirt who feel the need to intervene. Periodic foliar application of non-nutrient products (or single nutrients if tissue testing warrants) is a good way to scratch the itch of *doing something*. On the topic of doing something, my personal belief is that we should be focusing on maximizing the mycorrhizal network. A larger network of nutrient uptake ensures that the fruit is never source-limited from a nutrient standpoint. Final fun fact i'll leave you with...in many plant species, quite possibly pumpkins included, an astonishing 25% of all the product of photosynthesis (read: sugars) are excreted from the roots to feed beneficial microbes (primarily mycorrhizae). Let that soak in a moment. 25%!

3/7/2021 4:39:07 PM

Cape Breton Nova Scotia

Thanks for the response Joe. The foilar feeding I did didn't seem to hurt anything and it did help to scratch that itch of feeling I should be feeding something. I played around with foilar applications of Lithovit too. I guess I should stick with what I'm doing. What can we do to increase the mycorrhizal network?
Thanks again for all your help. If you have the time I'd appreciate your opinion on this years soil samples when I get them.

3/7/2021 6:06:40 PM

Lebanon

I must have read "more-on" reference to fertilizing a dozen times, only to just now get the reference. I'm a moron...

Great to hear input from folks with a nuanced understanding of the science

3/7/2021 9:20:48 PM

Deer Park, WI

Jody-

Using a mycorrhizae product throughout the season is the obvious first step. Another way to potentially greatly expand native populations of mycorrhizae is to inoculate and plant a winter rye cover crop during the off-season. Rye is an awesome host for MF. If seeded down immediately after the pumpkins come out of the patch in October, or mid-sept for those who rotate patches, this would permit good establishment of rye as well as MF until the pumpkins are planted. Year over year commitment to a process like this would likely lead to measurable differences in increased beneficial microorganisms.

3/10/2021 2:11:31 PM

Lancaster, OH

Very interesting stuff Joe. Thank you for the info. I know this thread is over two years old but do you still look over folks soil tests?

3/20/2023 3:53:37 PM