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Grittyville, WA

Not sure this is worth changing. The scoring system favors squash heavily. What is the motivation for the scoring system giving so many points to large squashes (maybe it's a reflection of it being the only category where the seed you plant may not be what you end up with). Can the GPC scoring disfavor squash a bit? Right now squash is the category you have to master to be a master gardener. I just wonder if this is intentional & for good reason.

2/16/2021 9:44:37 AM

Grittyville, WA

I probably shouldnt volunteer myself for this but I would be willing to come up with a system where a world record would be equal to 100 points and the formula for awarding points matched the GPC's category results "statistical spread" better. If you gave me about a week to work on it... I could see if there was a solution where all the categories would be equally competitive rather than favoring squash.
But there may be good reasons to keep the current scoring system & thats fine too. Just an idea for whoever makes the rules to consider.

2/16/2021 10:06:14 AM

Grittyville, WA

The current scoring system makes a big squash very important to being a top master gardener.
This is honestly to be taken just as an fyi. Please dont take this as the "c" word. I'm way too low on the totem pole to be _omplaining!!!

2/16/2021 10:45:18 AM

North Of The Border

Interesting idea.
Pumpkin: 0.038 instead of 0.052
Squash: 0.047 instead of 0.085
Bushel gourd: 0.21 instead of 0.3
Watermelon: 0.28 instead of 0.35
Long gourd: 0.65 instead of 0.1
Field kin: 0.47 instead of 0.63
Tomato: 9.25 instead of 15.43

2/16/2021 4:30:16 PM

North Of The Border

World record worth

Pumpkin 99.75 instead of 62.9
Squash 99.5 instead of 82.63
Bushel gourd 98.7 instead of 65.9
Watermelon 98 instead of 56
Long gourd 101.2 instead of 42.05
Field kin 99.17 instead of 60.89
Tomato 99.9 instead of 75.6


In total, 696 instead of 369.
Also, just realized I typed 15.43 instead of 7 for tomato.

2/16/2021 4:45:18 PM

North Of The Border

Not pointing fingers, but this shows that they show favor towardssquash, tomato, and bushel gourd, and are less so toward long gourds, and watermelon.
They would rather have world records of anything but watermelon, field pumpkin, and long gourd.

2/16/2021 4:47:55 PM

Grittyville, WA

If I remember correctly the return on a large field pumpkin isnt too bad but I think a world record long gourd scores the same as a 1200 lb squash. It's similar with watermelons vs squash.

2/16/2021 5:31:52 PM

Grittyville, WA

Anyhow I am sufficiently good at analyzing data and coming up with formulas... If its a needed skillset then send me an email.

2/16/2021 5:36:18 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Thanks for the input, and I continue to be interested in ideas to improve the MG scoring system.

The point value for each class was determined by setting the 90th percentile fruit in each class to a score of 35 points. (90% percentile means that 90% of growers grow fruits smaller than that weight.) For many statistical reasons this seemed like a fair and unbiased way to set up the scoring.

Here are the 90%iles that we used:

Class............90%ile weights (lbs & inches)
Atlantic Giant.............1458.3
Squash......................897.4
Bushel Gourd................250.0
Watermelon..................218.8
Long Gourd (length).........129.6
Field Pumpkin...............120.7
Marrow.......................89.7
Tomato.......................5.0

All those weights were then set to earn a 35 point score. Using that weight-to-score ratio we get the current points table:

Class.................Points per lbs or inches
Atlantic Giant.............0.024
Squash.....................0.039
Bushel Gourd...............0.140
Watermelon.................0.160
Long Gourd (length)........0.270
Field Pumpkin..............0.290
Marrow.....................0.390
Tomato.....................7.000

2/16/2021 7:33:49 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

We did also consider a World Record basing scoring system as suggested in previous posts (btw, PumpkinGrower216's post is in metric), but a WR standard has its own problems. (Generally, extreme upper outliers, like WRs, are not a good metric to use for determining full population metrics. So, while there may be a better method than the 90%ile method, I don't think a WR-based approach will yield any improvement.) A WR approach would really UNDERweight squash, in particular, but also Tomato, because the WR is so high compared to the expected weights of attainably large fruits by most growers. The largest squash and tomatoes are a bit tricky to score because of that large spread between the 90% and WR (that is, 90%ile standard overweights them slightly, while a WR-based standard would underweight them). I do think the current scoring system, which uses the same 90%ile metric for all classes is inherently a fair system, but not perfect by any means.

However, it's still a valid assessment to say that a big squash will help you compete for the MG title, but so would a big Tomato (or as WR is approached in any class, that will benefit the grower of that fruit substantially). Those were some outstanding squash grown by the top MG contenders (4th biggest ever, 18th biggest ever, and upper 1200 pounders are relatively rare and exceptional as shown by the scores they earned.)

Congratulations to all our Master Gardner contenders this year!

2/16/2021 7:34:01 PM

Centennial Colorado

I think it is a great system from a statistical perspective. The previous lacked any real analysis. I hope to not be second to last this year though. Learned so much this year. Hindsight 2020 literally.

2/16/2021 9:01:05 PM

Bonn, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany

Prior to finding these explanations, I had a look at GPC rules for master gardener competition.
Seems they need an update;)

2/18/2021 6:08:05 AM

President - GPC

All Rules including the ByLaws have been updated and will be released to our website after the Virtual Convention. The GPC has been hard at work.

2/18/2021 10:18:55 AM

Grittyville, WA

It's a fun competition to try. It really is fun. But be aware that a world record squash will earn you way more points than a world record long gourd or watermelon. A mild complaint. Lots of respect for the competition, the people working on it, and all the competitors.

2/18/2021 10:22:46 AM

Centennial Colorado

Until you have grown a squash you have no idea how hard it is to grow. Unlike pumpkins, they tend to not like to set, especially with the true green variety. With the new squash there is the fear of it being ruled as a pumpkin. I would say they are equally scored with the rest.

2/18/2021 1:11:25 PM

Grittyville, WA

I understand that squash should be scored higher than a pumpkin.

So Leif, you're saying Joe Jutras will grow a 448 lb watermelon and Cindy Tobeck will grow a 210" long gourd, instead of a squash?

Because in those categories, that's what it would take to earn points equivalent to what their respective 1838 lb and 1480 lb squashes earned.

I had trouble getting a squash set myself so I agree squash are difficult. I need to analyze the data more before commenting further. I will refrain from making any further suggestions because while I partly understand the stats I am not sure I fully understand the stats. And it's a bit late in the game to be asking for changes... it's a fun competition regardless of getting the math perfect.
Just realize a big squash is your entree. It's your meal ticket.

2/18/2021 5:19:28 PM

Grittyville, WA

Or maybe I am wrong maybe it isn't... Idk.

2/18/2021 5:51:08 PM

Grittyville, WA

I think bathabitat understands the stats deeper than I do.

So, moving on.

2/18/2021 6:19:49 PM

North Of The Border

If there is a problem with outliers, do an average of the top ten.

Pumpkins 10 average, 2485.76.
Point per pound, 0.0402291452

Squash, 1782.04, 0.0561154632 points per pound

Bushel Gourd 0.2741077792 points per pound

Watermelon, 0.2995805872 points per pound

Long gourd, 0.6747638327 points per inch

Field pumpkin, 0.5095541401 points per pound

Marrow, 0.5612932196 points per pound

Tomato, 11.0217127742 points per pound

Just a thought.

2/18/2021 7:40:48 PM

North Of The Border

You still have a world record bushel gourd worth more than a world record watermelon (128.83 versus 105), but it's closer.

2/18/2021 7:43:36 PM

Georgia

Nice thinking PG216. You could also use the median of the top ten to help offset outliers.

2/18/2021 9:48:49 PM

Bonn, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany

Got some extra information / hints to the sources... I properly understand the scoring.

There´s one point left:
Master Gardener should be a competiotion of growers, but the scoring seems to be based on entries.

2/19/2021 3:15:24 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I like that you're excited about master gardener scoring, PG216! Your WR score calculations are correct, but the assumption that the score of the WRs should be the basis for comparing across classes is where things are going astray. The world record has almost nothing to do with a fair master gardener scoring system. No master gardeners grew a world record this year (and this is true nearly every year, for master gardeners or general growers), so the point value of the WR is not something that matters too much, and definitely not what we should use to assess a fair scoring system.

A fair method to test between different scoring approaches would be something tied to the distribution of the expected weights in each class in the least biased way possible. A good example of this is the 90%ile, but another percentile might work, or the mean or median, maybe. Once a good fair metric for comparing scoring methods is identified, it becomes clear that the best point system should be calculated directly from that. This is what we did by setting the 90th percentile in each class to 35 points.

2/20/2021 3:11:29 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

An aside after my previous post, but Re: your top 10 average approach...

The top 10 average (or top 10 median) would get you closer to a fair point value than the WR alone, but since there are vastly different numbers of fruit in each class, that approach is still biased:
With ~1500 entries the AG top 10 represents the top 99.4 to 100th percentile,
while the Bushel Gourd top 10 represents the 93 to 100th percentile of its ~140 entries.

That means that scoring using a top 10 method would be weighted in a biased way according to the number of fruit grown in the class. That's a problem. But you were on the right track. The next step is to correct for the number of fruit grown in each class, which is done by not looking at the top 10, but instead at the top 10% aka the 90th percentile. The 90th percentile is a fair way to compare the top weights in each class because it takes the number of entries into account.

2/20/2021 3:31:10 AM

Grittyville, WA

If you scored in the 90th percentile in five categories, you'd probably deserve to be called a master gardener... I am in about the 20th percentile. I did grow six out of the seven categories sort of successfully and scored 97 points but due to covid I didnt make it to any weigh offs. So I am in the newbie zone but it was fun.

2/20/2021 3:52:08 AM

North Of The Border

I understand no one is winning a world record, and a master gardener. However, what constitutes a master gardener. I take it to mean someone who has master the growing of giant fruits. You have to define the word giant. The only way I see to do this is to base it off of the top ten mean.

2/21/2021 2:25:32 PM