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Walhalla, ND.

Way up here in northern North Dakota on June 21st our sunrise is 5:49 am sunset 9:41 pm. That’s approximately 16 hours of daylight 8 hours of darkness. Suppose one were to change the amount of sunlight. What if I were to trick the pumpkin plant into believing the longest day of the year was July 21st instead of June 21st. In other words utilizing a greenhouse and black poly one could gradually increase daylight hours till its peak reached maximum at say 13 or 14 hours or so on July 21st then start cutting back till your at normal sunrise and sunset times. Could this possibly have a positive effect on the pumpkin?

4/13/2019 8:18:11 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Extending the day light hours would be more beneficial.

4/13/2019 5:22:09 PM

Grittyville, WA

I dont think you can count on warm fall weather right? So I'd try to trick them into thinking May 21 was the solstice and thereby get an early start...

4/13/2019 5:29:30 PM

Syracuse, NY

When does anyone think that the PUMPKIN grows the most?
No time to research it NOW, but I'll be around---eg

4/13/2019 5:56:25 PM

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=545773

This is not exactly what you are thinking but along those lines. Might be of some use to you.

4/13/2019 9:09:06 PM

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=188160

4/13/2019 9:09:52 PM

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=188160

These 3 links are connected to what cntryboy was doing.

4/13/2019 9:11:38 PM

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=244731

sorry for double posting the last link

4/13/2019 9:13:59 PM

Walhalla, ND.

I thought I read somewhere in a discussion thread stating the kin puts most of its weight on at night. During the daytime photosynthesis goes on and at night is when the kin grows. Or I’ve lost my mind again which has a tendency to do sometimes.

4/13/2019 9:35:01 PM

http://bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=514804

Here is one discussion. I know there have been others . I think some people believe that weather (heat) could play a part in day or night gains. I cannot recall any conclusive evidence mentioned anywhere..
It can be hard to find what you are looking for sometimes.

4/13/2019 10:25:18 PM

Some people did measure though. That might be a project.

4/13/2019 10:30:37 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Hobbit, you have not lost you mind. From my experience, pumpkins always taped bigger after the night than a day. I think most would agree, but I’ve heard varying opinions on this over the years.

As for your original question, no idea, but cheers to thinking outside the box.

4/13/2019 11:07:31 PM

Syracuse, NY

Lol @ Hobbit, and I was gonna say something similar, as well as about the Orange Zone I remember seeing somewhere - in a Don Langevin book - about the range of the highest pumpkin weights around the world pertaining to the day and night lengths and temperature ranges associated with them; I believe Dale Marshall (Dale M, whose diaries in my search were very entertaining)) in Anchorage, Alaska's DIARIES would be a good, perhaps source of info concerning the day/night effects on a plant. oh, so much could come from this! later---eg

4/14/2019 1:27:25 AM

Colorado

Its complicated.Pumpkins put on a lot of there weight at night buts from sugars created from photosynthesis during daylight. I believe some of the plants hormone balance related to pumpkin growth may be manipulated by tricking the plant with shortening days at a different time than true summer solstice. This may effect daily gains or lenght of fruit growth-just a suspicion. Maybe i should see hobbits therapist after he gets help.:)

4/14/2019 1:50:53 AM

Walhalla, ND.

I know what you mean spudder, it can be difficult to find things on here that I’ve read. I use the search box on here and more often than not it brings me nowhere. I guess some important things I read I should do a screenshot. I’ve also been looking for a mention that someone grew a pumpkin on a scale and kept records but that info hasn’t been released yet. Someone also posted a continuous video recording of a pumpkin growing over time. It was fast forwarded I’m sure I witnessed it doing its growth spirts at night. Oh and cojoe, my therapist is my garden, it won’t be long and I’ll be ok again. Well somewhat anyway. :)

4/14/2019 6:06:49 AM

Walhalla, ND.

Check this out and decide.
https://www.facebook.com/pumpkinsslovenia/videos/1097089933638505/

4/14/2019 6:47:51 AM

Guelph, Ontario

There is no plant signal going on with pumpkins related to daylight /night ratios. No point in manipulating light so maximum is at a different date.

Increasing day-length will result in increase of photosynthesis, and should be of some benefit, but up to a point

4/14/2019 9:46:11 AM

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=446809

here is a discussion. I think you are right that no data has ever been released.

4/14/2019 11:58:29 AM

Hickory Island, MI

Joe Platte grew a 1510 Carter to 1348 lbs. on a scale last year. (Beautiful ‘kin, but late pollination.) He presented his results to the Michigan growers this spring, and beyond a doubt, the vast majority of its weight was put on at night. There were even hot, dry days when the pumpkin barely gained a pound in the daytime, but resumed normal growth at night. HOWEVER, I don’t for one second believe that we should sacrifice any daylight given to us. I believe it is one of the advantages to growing farther north, and I feel more sunshine just gives the plant more opportunity to carry out the reactions that ultimately lead to weight gain. There may be something to tricking the plant into thinking the growing season is longer than it is, and perhaps keeping the late season gains from dropping off, but I wouldn’t sacrifice a minute of sunshine to achieve that, in my opinion.

4/14/2019 2:58:19 PM

Norfolk, UK

My armchair theory would agree with Hicktown above - I wouldn’t sacrifice daylight hours. But I do think the ‘grow at night’ has merit, but for different reasons. During sunlight hours, you’ll get lots of assimilates produced from photosynthesis. As night hits, leaves cool and the gradient of the sink - the pumpkin which stays warm the longest - increases, and assimilates will head to it hence the growth at night. The faster the switch in temps, photosynthesis during proceeding day - or keeping the kin warm - should all increase the effect. So the theory goes anyway! Good luck!

4/14/2019 3:59:00 PM

Any link to data ?
Or can anybody post it even in a diary or to discussion board ?

4/14/2019 4:10:47 PM

Hadley Ny

I'll agree with the grow at night. Did some research a few years ago and it supported that theory. From my own personal experience (been growing veggies for over 30 year) they grow at night. I do about 100 summer squash plants a year and have to pick every morning..sometimes they are way bigger than what I want. I go back thru the patch during the day and find hardly any growth on the squash. Come morning they have grown significantly. Just my experience.

4/14/2019 4:32:13 PM

50 Acres

Too bad their isn' an all weather scale you could grow on and see the difference in day and nite growth.

4/14/2019 5:02:33 PM

Colorado

Irischap. Over the years Ive had AG plants that never would set a fruit.Plants that wouldnt set on the main but would on secondary vines. And plants that wouldnt set fruit till august. They tended to be aggressive plants.The nitrogen wasnt too high and I keep heat stress under control.Other plants next to them would set fruit normally.

4/14/2019 5:48:34 PM

Colorado

What do you think was the likely cause for hard to get a fruit set.Also they had normal male flowers with pollen.

4/14/2019 5:51:35 PM

Deer Park, WI

my two unsolicited cents- day length/darkness has relevance to vegetative vs reproductive stages of growth. This effect is called "photoperiodism", where decreasing night time darkness (called Long Day plants) induces a transition from vegetative growth to reproductive growth. Plants that respond to increases in darkness over time are called Short Day plants and include fall flowers. A third class exists called "Day Neutral", these plants do not care what the ratio of day:dark is, they flower on different mechanisms. Pumpkins & Squash are day neutral plants. So Mr. Hobbit's theory of delaying maximal day length would not have a physiological impact on the pumpkin's internal clock system driving vegetative/reproductive stage growth. Sorry to burst the balloon, it was a good hypothesis.

Regarding the day vs night growth discussion, it is 100% true that a majority of mass accumulation in the fruit happens in the dark. Here's why in a nutshell: the plant will focus most of its efforts on capturing sunlight during the day, using solar energy to build sugars (photosynthesis). When the photosynthetic machinery takes a break in the absence of light, the plant will transition to the "respiration" phase, where water, sugars, and nutrients are moved out of the leaves (sources) and into the roots, shoots, and froots (sinks).

This nighttime activity, somewhat similar to sleeping in animals, is absolutely necessary to make way for the next cycle of sunlight capture. One can argue that nature has perfected this system pretty well and any human attempt to highjack the system is likely effort in futility.

4/15/2019 3:46:28 PM

Deer Park, WI

One area of highjackable-interference outside of manipulating light/dark ratios is the transport speed of fluid in plant vasculature. Translocation of water/nutrient from the leaves, through the phloem, to the fruit is a temperature-dependent process. no surprise, warmer = faster. So, as we get into Sept and nights begin to cool, could we enhance fluid movement through the vines with supplemental heat??????????

4/15/2019 3:46:36 PM

Hadley Ny

It's funny. My research was of which direction to plant blackberries.. plants led to apple orchards in my area and they actually measured the apples at night and day and found growth at night time...imagin measuring apples for research..who would have thought

4/15/2019 4:33:35 PM

Walhalla, ND.

Joe, I read pretty much that thing just yesterday on your first post on this thread. I agree there probably wouldn’t have much if any affect at all.

I also think your second post is doable. Last year when things were getting real cold around here mid September, I was wrapping my main vine from ground level to stem on both sides to and from kin. I have little proof other than small daily gains but couldn’t definitively determine that was the reason. I plan on doing it again this year and be more aware and take very good notes. I think like you mentioned actually applying heat by some means like a heat tape of some sort.

4/15/2019 8:14:02 PM

Guelph, Ontario

Joe, Yes there are plants that flower based on day length. Yes there is short day and long day signaling. But the change from vegetative to flowering is in the apical meristem ( the terminal growth point) . A permanent change from growing just leaves and stems to producing flowers. Pumpkins are basically day neutral. Flowering signaling and the genetics of flowering in an area I have a lot of expertise in. I have an internet published paper on it. I can talk for many hours on this topic.

4/15/2019 10:03:50 PM

Deer Park, WI

Iris- thanks for sharing your background. To extend this dialog, do you believe severing the apical meristem would have any impact on daylength reception and possibly any impact in sink/ source dynamics? I’ve long advocated for preservation of the apical meristem (main vine tip in common parlance) as a means to continue proving plant hormonal signals favoring growth. Thoughts?

4/16/2019 7:08:06 PM

Deer Park, WI

Hobbit- regardless of what science tells us, I still believe you initiated a great discussion and I too would like to further explore the concept of supplemental late season heat to the main vine.

4/16/2019 7:28:10 PM

Guelph, Ontario

Joe, No. As they are day neutral plants, the only sensing is between day and night ,and intensity of light. In any case the sensing is done in leaves and signals sent to meristem in those plants that have light triggers. The chemical that is sent from leaves to meristem is called 'florigen'. It has been researched for some time. Recently there has had some publications on this , and actually several have been found. I have an ongoing discussion with one of the discoverers of one of these chemicals. He says it is a necessity for conversion of apical meristem, I say there are situations where it is not necessary. Hopefully we will be ale to put this to test. We have discussed experimental design several times. He is at U of Guelph, and I drop in to see him regularly.

4/17/2019 11:24:32 AM

Guelph, Ontario

I have been looking at source sink relationships, and in addition, what is signal that indicates when fruit is ripe and to stop growing. I suspect that when we know this, and can manipulate it , that potentials will go way up. Growing involves not just source sink, but cell division and cell growth. Both are involved in size, as well as maturity signal.

4/17/2019 11:30:30 AM

Billerica,Massachusetts

When told the reason for daylight saving time the old Indian said… 'Only a white man would believe that you could cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it to the bottom of a blanket and have a longer blanket.'

4/17/2019 1:15:48 PM

Walhalla, ND.

irischap, that’s what I’ve been wondering. “ What signals the fruit to stop growing” It seems to me that the daylight hours change through the whole season has something to do with it. One other thing I did last season was to pollinate a female flower late in the season on each plant with the hopes it would signal the plant to keep pushing nutrients. I only let it grow for a couple weeks. 10 days after the first I pollinated another, let grow a week then cull the first one.

4/17/2019 4:06:03 PM

Guelph, Ontario

Day-length is definitely not something to do with fruit maturity. Jut look at your squash and regular pumpkins. Maturing all season long. If day-length , they would all mature at same time.

Only effect of season would be hours of daylength for photosynthesis.

4/17/2019 10:57:29 PM

Morgantown, WV

I believe fruit growth is all hormonal. Yes, you can leave it on past its due date and keep pushing water into it, but as far as the ripening process and seed maturation, ethylene would be your culprit, no?

4/18/2019 5:22:41 AM

Guelph, Ontario

Ethylene is one suspect. But it is a genetic control. The big question is what would trigger the production of ethylene, if it is the hormone of interest. A balance of sugars, an internal measurement of some sort. If you know what trigger is, you can manipulate it.

There is the hormone treatment on young fruit that is touted. It may cause an initial growth, but it does not effect what ever is stopping growth at some point. That is a limiting factor

4/18/2019 7:35:05 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

How do we control Ethylene, and trick the pumpkin plant into thinking the fruit is only 30 days? Please use English for us simple folk :)

4/18/2019 1:05:09 PM

Deer Park, WI

Abscisic acid is the other major plant growth regulator that promotes aging. Growth promoting hormones like auxin, cytokinin, giberellins counteract the effects of the aging hormones. Another reason why I've advocated for preservation of main vine tip is for production of these signals to counteract the production of aging hormones.

One way you trick the plant into thinking its a teenager is to allow vine tips to grow.

4/18/2019 1:27:14 PM