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Deer Park, WI

Hello folks...please check out my 2004 grower diary for pics to get a jist of what sayin here. Im a huge advocate of moving seedlings from their indoor germ containers to the outdoors as soon as they break the soil. The pics show why.

I see a lot of growers germinate thier seeds in 4" peat pots, and let them grow until the first true leaf shows up before transplanting. So I'm here to offer an opinion that may help out your root health. The pictures clearly show that the roots way outpace the seedling's emergence. My seedling hasnt even spread open its cotyledons and the tap root has reached the bottom of a 5" tall pot. Imagine the root ball that will form by the time this seedling has a true leaf. It is important to note how fragile seedling roots are.

Using Doc's ice cream container method of germination, one could easily transplant this seedling with little or no damage to the very fine root hairs. There would be no root curling and the taproot would happily continue its downward trek.

Now, if one waits until the first true leaf forms, you have a rattlesnake coil of roots in the bottom that are screaming for room to expand. Transplanting a seedling like this incurs significantly more risk to damaging the fine roots. you also have a situation where the majority of the root system is only a couple inches below the soil line, and susceptible to drying out very quickly. cont...

2/5/2004 9:03:52 AM

Deer Park, WI

Another point to consider...having played around with plants most of my short 26 year life, i know how easy it is to mess up a root system. Plant a seedling and pull it out of the soil to play with, and you will see how easy it is to bust off the side shoots on the taproot, or even the taproot itself. If you break off one of these side shoots during transplantation, imagine what effects this has on a mature pumpkin plant. Much like a twig on a tree, when that little root shoot matures, it will be like a vacuum hose for your pumpkin. Ever pull up a pumpkin plant stump and look at the plumbing? some of those roots are HUGE. Breaking them off during transplantation WILL cause problems in the future. SO there's my plea. It pains me to see baby pumpkins with one or more true leaves in little 4" pots just screaming to get out in the garden.

I'll continue growing my seedlings to show how balled up the root becomes, even before that 1st true leaf shows up. As stated before, this is just my opinion, and im only tryin to help everyone grow a healthier plant. If you have evidence to the contrary, please speak up.

2/5/2004 9:12:55 AM

Montoursville, PA

You are right on target. Any stress caused by us is recovery time the pumpkin must stop and rebuild into it's natural direction.

Stompping about the patch like a square footed road roller compacts the soil beyond belief. We need to get our pumpkin patch board walks set up early, to avoid this compression stress.

2/5/2004 11:12:39 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Right-O Joe!

I have a experiment going on right now that confirms your report above. 5 days after the seed was in the germinator the initial tap root was hitting the bottom of a 5" container. The cots had not quite fully opened up yet.


There is still plenty of time to conduct your own tests. Find and use a clear plastic container for your pot. That way you can see the roots grow at an amazing speed.


4" pots will still work but depending on how long you keep it in there you are risking stunted and a compacted root ball.

2/5/2004 12:42:59 PM

Webster, NY

A lot of people use the peat pots and just put them in the ground to decompose as the plant grows. What do the experts think? Or, is it just better to plant in the ground, with protection around the seed to give it warmth. That way you don't have to disturb the roots at all. Any thoughts????

Dave

2/5/2004 12:55:22 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

We're discissing the root disturbances that we see here. But the fine feeder roots are too small to see with the naked eye. Imagine the damage caused them by unnecessary rough handling! Even small cracks in the soil during handling will set these babies back many days.

I like the idea of the "tape zipper" used with the pre-cut & bottomless ice-cream container (or similar) so as to have as close to zero impact as possible. That or direct sow in a heated soil environment.

Glenn (LIPumpkins) Andrews uses a technique like this I think.

2/5/2004 3:11:21 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

How long do the tap roots grow over the course of the season and how big of a hole should be dug to accommodate the roots?

2/5/2004 5:16:13 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Please see my photo diary. I grew from 4 " peat pots and planted them directly without removing the pot. Don't do it you will be left with badly strangled roots in a month or so. My photo's from last season prove this.

2/5/2004 6:16:44 PM

Deer Park, WI

The tap roots will go up to 6 feet down, if the conditions are right, however of more sigificance is the side shoots that come off the tapper. Picture and upside down tree...obviously the trunk is important, but its all the branches that do the work. Same deal with a pumper root system.

As far as the peat pots go, if you are growing competition fruit for size, i would not recommend burying a peat pot with the seedling. It takes weeks if not months to decompose the peat, all the while this is inhibiting root expansion. best to use the doc's ice cream method. Its top notch!

2/5/2004 9:20:26 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

What about tall pots? Say a 6 inch pot that is 10 inches deep. Are you choking the branches, or encouraging them to grow deeper? Benefit/Hinderance?

2/5/2004 11:36:21 PM

Cologne / Germany

Basically you could modify the ice cream container idea and just move to something bigger, like 3 gal buckets (saw them at KFC over here, the family box). Never underrate a young plant´s root system.
Also I had problems with the seed leaves several times, they were bigger than the pot opening, and sliding it out from the bottom side didn´t work.

2/6/2004 7:13:29 AM

Webster, NY

I can get ahold of some gallon containers that I could cut, tape together and use like the ice cream containers. It might be something to try this year. Anything to avoid that shock in the spring. I've had good seedlings that go in the ground and do nothing for a week. I also think I need to warm the ground more this year. Thanks for the advice everyone.

2/6/2004 7:33:30 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

JMattW

An upside down 6" x 10" (we call em Rose pots)would work well for up to about 3 days after germination.

2/6/2004 7:35:37 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

P.S,
I have a cunning plan for a new design of pot,
I'll try and make one today and post it in my diary.

2/6/2004 7:47:47 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Peat pots generally do not decompose as quickly as AG roots grow. So at some point the roots will need to turn or at least modify their growth somehow in response.

If nothing else, I would cut the bottoms off prior to use. Maybe a false bottom (with drainage holes) can be fitted for quick removal.

Steve

2/6/2004 8:19:54 AM

Walkerton Ont

Roots grow fast, i had my seeds started by a grower that works in a lab, so i got them started in a icubator. Germinated in 1 -2 days and within those todays the roots were sticking out of the pea pot over a inch. So thats like 4 -5 inches in 2 days. I guess its important to get pig enough pots if they are going to be in there for about 15 days or so.

2/6/2004 10:37:00 AM

Joliet, IL

if you go to your nearest concrete batch plant and talk to
the quality control manager, you can probably buy 10
plastic cylinder molds with lids used for testing concrete
for a very cheap price. if you tell them what you will be
using them for, they will probably give you them for free.
they are 6" wide by 12" tall cylinders. last year i started
my plants in 4" peat pots filled with starter mix. as soon
as they break ground, i transfer them into the cylinder
molds that are half filled with preheated potting soil.
if you cut out the bottom of the cylinder mold, you now
have a 12" x 6" plastic tube. cut the tube lengthwise and
then tape it back together with duct tape. then take the
plastic cap cover that comes with the cylinder molds and
punch drainage holes in it. the lid will now act as the
bottom of the transplant tube. after placing the 4"
peat pot with sprout into the half filled container, just
fill in the sides and add more soil around stem of the
sprout. i then was able to move these containers with
sprouts outside for some sunlight acclimation a few days
before being planted into the ground once the first true leaf forms. come transplant time you just pull the tape
and pull off the bottom lid. it worked good last year
and the size and shape of these plastic cylinder molds
is perfect to allow the initial tap roots to grow
unconstricted those first 6 days until transplanting into
the patch. i have some pictures and details in my 2003
diary. last year i cut the length of the tube 4" making
it a 8" by 6" wide container. after reading this post i will
leave them at the full 12" this year.

2/8/2004 1:02:43 AM

Wood River, Nebraska

This year my goal is to get the newly germinated plant to the patch ASAP. Please revisit how to determine which direction the main will grow.
dave

2/8/2004 9:31:02 PM

Norton, MA

The main will go in the opposite direction of the first "true" leaf. Or the third leaf including the two cot leaves. Alex.

2/9/2004 6:44:16 AM