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Ashland, KY

Germination thoughts and an experiment: First, please take note that I am not questioning the expert opinions and vast experience of the BG community. I am a complete newbie who is enjoying this hobby. Also, I am a scientist in my day job, so I like to tinker in the lab (OK, my garage!) to try to understand, and maybe improve, pumpkin growing methods.

First: direction of root growth. As you know, roots grown downward in response to gravity (gravitropism). It seems that whatever method one uses to germinate, they should not be laid out horizontally. I’ve seen pictures of the paper towel method, and those were laid out on a flat surface. It seems that more robust growth would result if they were maintained in the vertical direction, with tip (embryo radicle) pointed down.

Second: soaking seeds. I did an experiment using blue food coloring in water to mark the part of the seed that “takes up” the liquid. The seed was filed all around. After soaking just the tip in the blue water, the fluid had soaked all around the entire seed, saturating the filed area. The shell was then pried off, and it was clear that the radicle/embryo had soaked up the water (see diary pics), but the endosperm/cotyledon was not wet (in fact, it is waxy and hydrophobic, suggesting that it will never get moistened even if submerged). In nature, seeds have a natural opening at the tip (where the embryo radicle is), suggesting that this is the only part of the seed that needs moisture. What does this all mean? Well, not sure! It seems that too much water will promote mold growth, and to stimulate germination, one only needs to moisten the tip to kick-start the embryo. Soaking the entire seed may not be necessary, and may add to mold problems. It does seem like a good idea to file the rest of the seed to help the seedling/cotyledon break out (more experiments to do!!).

Thoughts?

EP

4/3/2012 6:40:16 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Can I ask a question have you ever germinated a pumpkin seed? Horizontal is needed because this allows the shell to shed easily.

A seed is waiting patiently for the right conditions to start the process. Has this seed been waiting in a slowly rotting fruit all winter long or been carefully washed and dried to 10% moisture and stored in a cool dark place, until someone carefully places it in the right conditions.

4/3/2012 9:20:46 PM

Ashland, KY

Hi Linus- I bought most of my seeds from Holland's Giants or Giants of the Garden. I'm trying to do this the right way with good, proven stocks of GP seeds. This is my third year of informal and fun tinkering with GPs. Regarding the shedding of the shell, all of my seedlings (when germinated in soil) push upward through the soil and grow several inches, with the shell splitting and either falling off on their own, or with a little help from me. Actually, I think that the filing of the seeds really helps the cotyledons spread out of the shell. If your experience indicates that horizontal works well for you, then that's great. My main point I was asking about horizontal vs. vertical had to do with the idea that roots grown best when pointed down, which makes biological sense (gravitropism).
Grow on!

E

4/5/2012 3:49:46 PM

Colorado

Ive always put the seeds in vertically.Many flip over on their side anyways as they emerge.Those are the ones that want to rock and roll,or get their freak on.

4/5/2012 3:58:39 PM

Colorado

Very interesting about the dye.That does make sense once you mention your findings.Now I need a good psychic to pick out seeds or possibly a shrink

4/5/2012 4:09:58 PM

President - GPC

Super Freak...Super Freak.....Mr Freaky.....lol sorry, Im getting excited for the seaZon...

4/5/2012 4:11:07 PM

Ashland, KY

Hi Cojoe- shrink or psychic? Might as well! It's one of those life lessons, isn't it......dont know if you picked the right seed, made the right decision, until months after it's made!

EP

4/5/2012 4:46:08 PM

Webster, NY

I'm not sure it matters whether you put a seed in horizontally or vertically. If you lay it down on it's side, the root will naturally grow downwards, I feel, at the same rate as one placed vertically. I've done both thinking one might be better then the other and not seen much of a difference.

Just my personal observations.

4/5/2012 7:23:46 PM

Ashland, KY

Thanks Dave---I think experience like yours (and others) is much more important than over-thinking a problem!
E

4/5/2012 7:57:34 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Horizontal works for me. The plant spends a little longer developing before it pops up and just seems stronger and thicker than those that are able to push straight up. I do it be ways all the time and you won't offend me by calling me crazy but try it with some of your own seeds, just for fun. See if you make the same observations.

4/5/2012 8:26:39 PM

Western NY

I usually do point down. If you put it on it's side or upside down, ect in theory it shucks the shell as it emerges, but there can be problems with that. I have had situations where the shell remains in the soil and roots get caught inside it. I also had one where it ripped its own cot off as it shed the seed coat. The cot and shell remained in the soil, eventually rotting and taking the stem with it.

I want the seed coat up where I can pick it off myself.

4/5/2012 8:26:59 PM

The North Coast

lol Wiz...she's a very freaky girl....

4/5/2012 8:37:21 PM

Webster, NY

Andy, I've never tried placing it upside down. Might be interesting to try on some extra seeds I won't be using.

4/6/2012 3:38:45 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

Interesting, I agree about needing to be vertical, and when I have tried the paper towel method, I have had the shoot come out every direction possible.

What about the effects of gravitropism on the human face or butt? It seems if I lay down or stand my face keeps wantin to go down, especially after a few beers.

Maybe I'll soak the seeds in a Bud. I bet that root will go down no matter what direction it's laying.

4/6/2012 9:04:37 AM

Stanwood, Washington

I checked out your diary. Very interesting stuff. It would also be interesting to know just how much water the radicle is soaking up. It could be that soaking the whole seed in a giant bucket of water for hours is overkill. There is only so much water that the seed can absorb. I wonder if it would be possible to dial in the amount of time it needs to soak to get the proper amount of water. It could be as simple as sticking the tip of the seed in a thimle full of water until it soaks it all up.

4/6/2012 12:37:25 PM

Ashland, KY

Captain, I think you are right- And to all- I am not for one second challenging anyone's experience (these message boards need such disclaimers, lest one annoy one's peers!). I'm a newbie, with a lot of biological curiosity and don't mean to challenge anyone's experiences (which carry more weight than my musings!).

I do think that the embryo needs only a tiny bit of moisture (plus warmth) to wake up, and in my very limited experience I find that standing the filed seed, tip down for an hour, in a very very shallow puddle of water, about 1/8 inch deep, works well. I use a lid from a distilled water jug; very shallow. The water will "wick" all around the filed shell (which I think is important in 2-3 days when the shell needs to split). The vast bulk of the seed is the endosperm that forms the cotyledons, and these do not need any additional moisture from soaking, I suspect. In fact, the endo/cots are waxy and oily and simply won't adsorb much moisture anyway. Most properly stored seeds should not need H2O2 to decontaminate them, since the shell is so thick and tough (and won't allow microorganisms into the seed). And if a seed is stored dry, it should not have viable microorganisms on the outside either.

A little moisture, some warmth, and of course oxygen (air) and germination of viable seeds should go fine. Once the roots and the true leaves form, then you can all go do the voodoo that you do so well!

EP

4/6/2012 4:27:15 PM

Ashland, KY

I prefer to soak my head in Bud.

4/6/2012 4:33:59 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

EP, I was at first shocked by yer filing method (awl the way around, esp the radical tip)!!! (The pics, w/ the 3 holes were a bit shocking!!!)Seed filing methods have told us for years to not file around the tip of the seed! But have found yer methods (and dye results) have sorta supported some advice I have been given recently. On a specific seed I hope to grow, was advised...very light filing, very short soak, and into 88-90F germination chamber. Might sound contradictory, but, it is what it is...a little moisture, some warmth, and oxygen!!! Peace, Wayne

4/7/2012 3:16:11 AM

Ashland, KY

Hi Wayne (fellow Kentuckian…Go Wildcats!) I appreciate your thoughts. I also think that damaging the radicle is the kiss of death! But, I did a little research, both reading as well as tinkering in the garage, and it turns out that the radicle is deeper in the shell tip, not at the tip’s tip. Also, seeds have a naturally occurring hole through which water enters for germination, called the micropyle, and interestingly, the radicle points right at the micropyle (the naturally-occurring opening at the seed tip). Carefully filing the tip may simply open up the micropyle a bit more, as well as clear away that tough shell tip so the radicle can easily zip right out.

If you take a look at the first picture of my 2012 diary, take a look into the middle hole of the filed seeds, especially the middle seed. One can see (but barely) the tip of the radicle in the middle hole. A bit more filing would have hit the radicle and probably greatly reduce germination efficiency. I use a fingernail file (um, “borrowed” from my wife!) and take my time. It’s easy to know when to stop since the filed seed edge is whitish/creamy in color, and you know when you are about to reveal the small hole under which lies the radicle: once the color of the filed shell goes from creamy white to dark (because it is getting thinner, not changing color), its time to either stop, or cross your fingers and give it a few more file passes until a small hole is visible (small, meaning 0.5mm or less). Then, I balance the shell, tip-down, in about 1/8 or so inch deep puddle of water for an hour or so, then plant tip down in soil, maintain uncovered at 88-90 deg. The youngun’s pop out in 2 or 3 days. If the shell is attached to the cots, I remove it as soon as possible.

Try this filing idea with some trial seeds first!!

Cheers! and Peace!
EP

4/7/2012 4:53:02 PM

Omaha, Ne.

I don't know much. But each seed I soaked for 20min and every one grows in a soil mix that is barely damp. I dig it out after 24 hr. They usualy have 2 inch of root.

4/7/2012 10:09:32 PM

Lexington, Ky

If you want to validate (or complicate) any of your results, compare your established procedures against the advanced seed starting method. This method eliminates soaking, filing and comes with the added benefit of not having to worry about moisture levels in your starting medium.

4/9/2012 8:09:52 AM

East Jordan, MI

For those of you who don't know, I believe 1320 is referring to the How-to section on the home page. Here is a direct link to the Advanced Seed Starting Method.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=66

4/9/2012 9:04:18 AM

Colorado

Different strokes for different folks on seed starting.Ive had very high germination success with. filing the edge,4 hour soak- water with dilute seaweed,85 degree incubator, well rung out potting soil.I'm too much of a puss to pick the shell off my one and only 1647 wallace seed

4/9/2012 12:15:09 PM

Goodwood, Ontario, Canada

I've been practice germinating seeds for over a month now. Was 10 for 10 until recently by soaking seeds in water for about three hours and then planting in potting soil. Try to keep soil around 85 to 90 degrees.

I'm also experimenting with the paper towel method only to see if it speeds up germination.

4/9/2012 1:27:54 PM

President - GPC

What about using EssentialZ for seed soak and dry method....?

4/9/2012 1:46:54 PM

Ashland, KY

Indeed! Different methods for different folks! Our differences enrich the discussions!
EP

4/9/2012 2:46:29 PM

Colorado

Ep I have been practicing trimming the radicle tip on some of my own seeds. Ive been using a sharp box cutter and taking off small slices.when the middle hole appears its time to stop.

4/9/2012 5:06:17 PM

Ashland, KY

cojoe- Sounds like what I've done with the filing. Cool!

4/9/2012 8:33:00 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

EP, sweet to see a fellow Kentuckian stir things up a lil, and respond w/ respect to awl!!! I am gonna stick to the file & soak methods, sent to me by the Godfather of my one of a kind seed!!! Just barely scrape the seed, w/ a file...don't touch the tip,less than 30 minute soak, closer to 90 than 85 in the germination chamber!!! I am certainly hoping that I and my seed's mycropyle are in correct alignment!!!! Peace, Wayne

4/10/2012 2:21:26 AM

Ashland, KY

Gotta keep them micropyles in line!

4/10/2012 10:39:18 PM

Southeast

How does geotropism come in to play ?

4/12/2012 2:15:50 PM

Ashland, KY

I think geotropism and gravitropism are the same thing, aren;t they? The tendency for a plant to grow toward (or away) from gravity. Roots grown downward toward gravity. Plant signaling factors like auxins are involved, and I am not sure if scientists know exactly how gravity affects the distribution of these factors.
EP

4/12/2012 10:53:56 PM