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On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

So far Dale T. and I have been able to identify 160 tomatoes that are in the Big Zac line that started with Chris Lyons and went through Catapano, Timm, Nick Harp and Fabrice Boudyo and on including Dan MacCoy. In all cases so far we have not been able to actually go through the total heritage of each seed but enough to know they are in the line. It is getting difficult to track those that are left as their history has not been recorded for whatever reason. If we can get growers to only grow seeds that have at least enough history to know they are in the Big Zac line and keep better records in the future when entering tomatoes in the GPC contest we will definitely be doing better than we have been. We will know if a tomato is a Big Zac offshoot, Domingo, Delicious, Brutus Magnum, MegaMarv, Zaczilla etc. This next year our plea is that you grow seeds the history of which are definitely known relative to variety and that you enter that information in the appropriate slot when you weigh your tomato and enter it into the GPC contest. We are continuing to attempt identification of tomatoes already grown. Marv

3/3/2016 9:02:42 AM

Central NY

I can foresee a problem heading into next season... You are only allowed to Enter 3 early tomatos for virtual weighoff... Last year I saved seeds from all my maters over 5lbs, and gave them out ...they aren't listed in the gpc but they are labeled correctly so hopefully it won't be to bad a problem but in case it is...here's the seeds I gave out from the 5.75 pc domingo 14...5.02, 5.03 ,5.20, 5.51, 5.55,5.58... Should I only save seeds from tomatoes I get listed official?... Seems like that would save some trouble...

3/3/2016 10:07:09 AM

East Tennessee

why are we limited to 3 early, virtual weighoff?

3/3/2016 10:52:19 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

It is difficult to get some growers to do things they might consider above and beyond or not important. My feeling is that if you send out seeds that are clearly documented then it is up to the person growing those seeds to document them likewise if they grow something big and give away seeds to other growers. What I am trying to say is that growers should only plant well documented seeds and to make sure they send the seed info with any seeds they pass on. Porkchop, the seeds you sent out are heirloom and genetically pretty much the same even though they came from different plants. 6 tomatoes over 5 pounds was a pretty good year. The seeds from your five Domingo plants/tomatoes are essentially interchangeable unless some mutation or cross pollination took place. The bigger problem is the seeds coming from the Big Zac line. since they are not heirloom but after so many generations out are becoming stable. Dan MacCoy's seeds from his 8.42 are 8th generation Big Zac. Seeds are pretty much stabilized when grown from a hybrid after the 5th generation when selected for a given characteristic such as size and so the Big Zac line is getting stable and could now be considered open pollinated for some seeds, meaning a seed from a given tomato will have the same characteristics plant and tomato-wise as the plant/tomato they came from. What we need to be certain is attached to each seed is the variety. Domingo is an heirloom and so the size of the tomato is interesting but the variety is absolutely necessary and something we cannot afford to lose. Many of the tomatoes grown last year do not have their variety listed here on this site. Ken is working with us to correct this certainly in the future and as best we can in the past. Okay?

3/3/2016 11:06:41 AM

Central NY

Yup!.. And thanks again to you and Dale ...

3/3/2016 11:15:52 AM

Ohio

What if you get seeds from a reputable grower, who pretty much just grows tomatoes, and the seed packs just say the variety. But doesn't state what seed they came from. Isn't that the start of losing the genetic line. I've gotten tomato seeds like that, I will be growing them this coming season. So how do I determine the genetics when I enter the tomato? Just curious.

3/3/2016 1:08:16 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

You can contact the grower and ask about the genetics. If you have the variety and it is an heirloom you are okay though I would still believe you would be better off the bigger the tomato the seeds came from. For a Big Zac offshoot I would like to know about the parents as not all BZ seeds will be F5 and beyond, not yet stable. I think you would be better off the more stable the BZ seed you get and the bigger the tomato it came from.

3/3/2016 1:32:46 PM

Ohio

Ok. Thanks.

3/3/2016 1:35:19 PM

Wixom MI.

marv, what do you suggest on labeling a crossed tomato like the one i sent to you 5.51 mega marv x 8.41 MacCoy(big zac) ? should i be giving it a name like mega-zac ? i like it to be simple so people can see the cross in the name ! im afraid if i just give it a plain name like slammer or konieczny cross that peaple will not remember what the cross was ?

3/3/2016 3:32:07 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

Next year, i will be growing competition tomatoes outside for the first time. Right now, i expect to be growing 4 different lines....Big Zac, Delicious, Domingo and BigZarro. They will be all grown in close proximity to each other. I expect them all to be open pollinated. I also expect to be growing the seeds from the plants i enjoyed the most. If think it is possible to focus too much on the variety..at the expense of enjoyment...i certainly dont want to be limited to my choice of what to grow because i have incomplete knowledge of its genetics.

3/3/2016 5:07:17 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Chris, I would give them whatever name you want and include in it something like (MMxBZ) to give the cross and also F1 since it is new hybrid. The name in the following year gets more complicated. More and more people will be growing their own crosses and it will be confusing.Quite a few people have crossed Delicious with Big Zac and quite a few of them are calling it DelZac and so there will be a lot of DelZacs F2 out there. It will be confusing unless everyone keeps good records and passes the info on when they give away the seeds. Ultimately there will be a lot of unknown seeds and people in the know will not grow an unknown seed unless it grows really big. We will see where it all goes. I am just trying to get growers to be aware of the varieties of what we are now growing. We can deal with the other soon but not yet. Just keep good records, as best you can. (What is Big Zarro?)

3/3/2016 6:11:16 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

As I understand it, the Big Zarro has its start from a 4.5 tomato purchased by Michael Johnson from the UK, at a Portuguese market in 2006. I have seeds from Dale Thurber, from a 14+ fused blossum, The Big Zarro, is reputed to grow to potential 17 feet tall, with bizarre suckers growing out of leaf veins. If the only seeds ever planted were of only documented genealogy this variety would not exist. The seeds i have are from a 3.754 tomato.

3/3/2016 6:37:14 PM

East Carbon, Utah

An excellent discussion here!. I think many of us that grow tomatoes for competition started out growing giant pumpkins. In that world it is standard practice, though not universal, to record both parents of every cross. The pumpkin database is outstanding, with complete genealogies available for most seeds.

Variety name is simple with pumpkins: Atlantic Giant - and it's understood and goes without saying.

So it's a different mindset for many to include BOTH variety name and genealogy (usually a single parent, sometimes two for intentional crosses), along with weight, grower and harvest date.

Marv has put a great deal of effort into filling in the gaps in the tomato database. Any information to help in this project would be much appreciated!

3/3/2016 11:22:39 PM

East Carbon, Utah

Just my opinion, but I think we will begin to see significant and regular increases in tomato weights when we start to collaborate with making crosses among the various large-fruited varieties: take a less from Minnie Zaccaria! Without infusing new genetic material into the various lines of giant tomatoes, increases in sizes will come only with improvements in growing techniques, along with the luck of megablooms and cooperative weather.

But naming and tracking these new crosses will become a real challenge, as suggested. As I mentioned in a previous post, I have probably thrown a huge monkey wrench into the system by releasing a number of seeds of some of my crosses:

> Hoy (~3 Kott 2011) X Delicious (6.51 Meisner 2011)(7.33 Hunt 2010)

> Rebecca Sebastian's Bull Bag X Big Zac (4.57 MacCoy 2013)(5.07 Bouydo 2010)

> Bezrazmernyi (1.698 DT 2012) X Big Zac (5.50 Johnston/Butler 2012)(5.58 Timm 2008)

> Wes (1.718 DT 2012) X Big Zac (4.57 MacCoy 2013)(5.07 Bouydo 2010)

> Brutus Magnum (2.006 DT 2012)(6.25 Meisner 2011) X Big Zac (4.57 MacCoy 2013)(5.07 Bouydo 2010)

> Michael's Portuguese Monster (2.610 DT 2012) X Delicious (6.51 Meisner 2011)(7.33 Hunt 2010)

> Belmonte (1.556 DT 2011)(4.14 Perry 2009) X Big Zac (2.962 DT 2012)...(4.83 Perry 2009))

> Michael's Portuguese Monster (2.610 DT 2012) X MegaMarv (4.23 Wahl 2012)(5.51 Meisner 2011)

> Bezrazmernyi (1.698 DT 2012) X Big Zac (4.57 MacCoy 2013)(5.07 Bouydo 2010)

> Shuntukski Velikan (1.978 DT 2012) X Big Zac (3.75 Catapano 2007)(4.59 Lyons 2006)

3/3/2016 11:41:57 PM

East Carbon, Utah

All of these crosses were made in in 2014 and most of these have been released at the F2 stage, so are far from stable. I have not named any of them, though I have names in mind. Who knows what will become of these?

Unlike some tomato purists (some of whom seem to have a deep-seated need to control other tomato growers...), I subscribe to the principles of OSSI (Open Seed Source Initiative). "Free the Seed" is their motto, and this statement is to appear on listed varieties:

"You have the freedom to use these OSSI-Pledged seeds in any way you choose. In return, you pledge not to restrict others’ use of these seeds or their derivatives by patents or other means, and to include this Pledge with any transfer of these seeds or their derivatives."

None of my crosses are listed with OSSI yet. But I don't believe in even naming hybrids. Grow it out for several generations, wait until we have something reasonably stable as an open pollinated variety, then perhaps give it a name if it merits one.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the water too much!

3/3/2016 11:42:13 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Thanks Dale. You make a fine example of just how complex the picture will become as more and more people begin to make crosses in an attempt to get bigger tomatoes much the same as Minnie did when she created Big Zac. When this all started there was one variety of tomato growing in South America and now we have over 15,000 or more varieties of tomatoes in existence, all from mutations and cross pollinations and later by selections and intentional cross pollinations by growers. So, grow what you know, or not, keep records and pass information on to anyone you give seeds to. It can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Hopefully we will not end up with a lot of unknown seeds.

3/4/2016 10:12:45 AM