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On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

If we are ever going to keep track of tomato seeds and where they came from we will all have to accept using the same naming format. Tomato seeds are not like pumpkin seeds in that they self pollinate for the most part unless a grower makes a great effort to hand pollinate them. Also tomato seeds are either hybrids or heirlooms. Heirlooms will remain true unless they are somehow contaminated during the pollination process or are hand pollinated by a grower trying to make a cross. Therefore they always keep their own name. Delicious is Delicious. If we intend to select only the biggest Delicious tomatoes for seed purposes we can identify this by adding to the name of the seed the weight and the grower. A 5 pound Delicious tomato grown in 2009 by Whosit would be produce seeds named 2009 Whozit Delicious 5.

With hybrid tomato seeds it is a bit more difficult as we are talking about generations of seeds. Nick Harp grew a 7.18 pound tomato from a hybrid, Big Zac. The seed would be an F2 Big Zac but could be given the name 2009 Harp 7.18
To be even more exact the parent seed's name could be added such as 2009 Nick Harp (Big Zac F4)7.18
If we are ever going to keep track of the heritage of our tomato seeds we need to adopt some sort of a universally adopted naming system for the seeds.

New seeds created by growers from crosses will be named whatever the grower decides but it will have to be understood that it is a hybrid and that the seeds will not necessarily grow true from the tomato. Questions or Suggestions?

12/27/2009 2:40:22 PM

Belgium

don't make it to difficult.....

12/27/2009 2:54:00 PM

Wv

i say name of grower, weight of tomato,then hybred or heirlom,simple, as they go on year to year you have a ped.its not going to happin all at once but three,four gen will happin. if your useing certain seed of someone else im sure they will tell you its from a store seed or a cross of these two.treetop

12/27/2009 4:29:47 PM

Baltimore

i think lubadub method best

12/27/2009 5:14:23 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Similar to this?

4.83 Perry 09 (5.58 Timm 08 X Open) (Big Zac)
4.48 Perry 08 (Church X Open)
4.14 Perry 09 (BelMonte X Open)"unibloom"
3.59 Perry 09 (unknown)
3.50 Perry 09 (unknown)
3.36 Perry 08 (Church X Open)
7.18 C. Harp 09 (5.58 Timm 08 X Open) (Big Zac)
5.416 Harp 09 (5.58 Timm 08 X Open) (Big Zac)
4.64 Harp 09 (unknown) "unibloom"
5.58 B. Timm 08 (3.9 Catapano 07 X Open) (Big Zac)
5.32 Timm 08 (3.9 Catapano 07 X Open) (Big Zac)
5.0 Timm 08 (3.8 Timm 06)
4.29 Timm 08 (3.9 Catapano 07 X Open) (Big Zac)
3.872 B. Timm 08 (3.8 Timm 06 X Open) (Delicious)
3.685 B. Timm 08 (3.4 Timm 06 X Open) (Delicious)
3.32 King 09 (Domingo X open)
3.19 King 09 (Domingo X Open)
2.39 King 09 (NJ Big Bill X Open)

12/27/2009 5:43:55 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Let me give you another example. Take the first one on the list above which is a tomato grown from an initial Big Zac seed by Perry. It would be more like 4.83 Perry (Big Zac F4)09. The second tomato was grown from Church which is an heirloom. It would be 4.83 Perry (Church) 08. The weight of the tomato or the year grown could be either first in the name or last. Probably it would be better to have the weight first as that is what we are really interested in. All of the tomatoes on this list were self pollinated as are most of the tomatoes we are growing and so that can be left out. If you start your own tomato by making your own cross, and this is not easy, you can just give it whatever name you want and if you like you could give the parents as well.An example would be Big Zac and I am making up the parents as noone but Minnie knows them. So the name would be Big Zac. You would not even have a weight if you just made the cross and never grew it out. It would be the next year when you had a weight and year. Questions? Comments? Criticism?

12/27/2009 8:18:11 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

In your first example.
Once those seeds are distributed how is anyone to know that was grown from a 5.58 Timm seed?
By attaching the predecessor one can at least go back, find the 5.58 Timm seed and find attached parentage info on that seed just as we do with pumpkins.

Also, should there a distinction between plants which are open pollenated in the presence of other varities which have the "possibility" of being crossed? Example: If a person is growing a Big Zac next to a sweet 100 they may or may not have been cross-pollenated by insects, bees, etc. There is always that possibility. If open pollenation is allowed in this instance, one can no longer say with certainty that the resulting fruit are 100% (Big Zac)

Plants which are open pollenated in only the presence of a single variety could possibly have the X OPEN left off. Example: If one were growing a dozen Delicious and there isn't another variety nearbye enough to result in a cross pollenation, therefore the possibility of cross pollenation doesn't exist and the resulting fruit could then be labeled without the X OPEN and just (Delicious).

12/28/2009 9:05:10 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Several things. Again looking at the list above what is 3.872 B. Timm 08 (3.8 Timm 06 x open)(Delicious)? Also, if you really want to be certain that any tomato is self pollinated you must bag the blossom even before it opens.Very few people do this. You might be able to "basg another blossom on the plant for seed purposes but then what would you call seeds coming from that tomato? You tell me. This may all just be too complicated for anyone to really do?

12/28/2009 10:10:03 AM

virginia

Lubadub,,,,,,,,You are Soooooo right. Agree 100%,,,,,,,,,,,greg

12/28/2009 1:56:26 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Maybe I am missing something here but in that example, the 3.872 B. Timm 08 was grown off of the 3.8 Timm which was grown in 2006 and was originally the variety Delicious. If we were to drop the (3.8 Timm 06 x open)off of the desription that would leave only 3.872 B. Timm 08 (Delicious). How is one to know from that description all of the generations it took for that tomato to get to that size? Now all we know is that the fruit was grown off of the variety delicious when in fact the year prior it was a 3.8 Timm, the year prior to that it may have been a 2.5 Timm, The year before that a 2.0 Timm, the year before that a pack of commercial Delicious seeds.
By adding the (3.8 Timm 06 X Open) we can then go back through recorded weights and find what the 3.8 Timm 06 was grown off of.

If the blossom were bagged ensuring self pollenation, the seed could then be called 3.872 B. Timm 08 (3.8 Timm 06 x SELF)(Delicious) rather than Open.

12/28/2009 2:43:42 PM

Wv

My vote is weight,name,year,ped. as the two that was crossed for the seed that grew the fruit if known. sometimes its just best to keep it simple.as you grow year after year youll have a full ped. just a hillbilly talking but simple is always better.lol

12/28/2009 5:53:33 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

I believe the name for the seed from the tomato grown from the heirloom Delicious by Timm that weighed 3.8 pounds should simply be called 3.8 Timm (Delicious)08. Delicious will always be Delicious as it is an heirloom and the more important thing is the weight. But I really don't care as what I put forth was merely a suggestion. The more I think about it the more I am thinking it will be impossible for anyone to keep track of what came from where unless someone takes it on as our group record keeper. Duane could be that guy. And keep in mind that noone has yet made a cross. I am getting a headache thinking about it.

12/28/2009 7:34:01 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Here's my greatest problem with the example 3.8 Timm (Delicious)08.
BTW, I'm not trying to be arguementative here just ironing out details.

We'll use the 7.18 N.Harp 09 (5.58 Timm) "Big Zac" as an example.

By adding the last predecessor as we do with pumpkins, we are giving credit to the actual seed it was grown off of which was the 5.58 Timm. This gives a future grower something to reference the lineage of that seed with.

In other words, If I were a new grower who was searching out possible future champion seeds and came across the description 7.18 N. Harp (Big Zac)09, I would automatically assume that the 7.18 Harp was grown off of the commercially available Big Zac seed, which would predispose me to purchasing the Big Zac variety, rather than searching out a 5.58 Timm which it was actually grown off of.

12/28/2009 8:02:53 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

this is really gonna get out of wack when someone does a cross..2 sets of parents more grandparents..oohhh boy..lol

12/28/2009 9:54:45 PM

Bloomington, IN

I think at some point something like the AGGC is going to need to be created for giant tomatoes.

GTGC = Giant Tomato Genetics Cooperative

12/28/2009 11:01:16 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

It is illegal to create a new hybrid from an existing patented variety so new crosses would have to be made from heirloom varieties only. So if for example, you created a new hybrid cross of two heirloom varieties and that fruit weighed 5 pounds, the initial tomato would be known as the 5.0 King 2010 (BelMonte X Domingo).
Most growers who have created new varieties in the past do not share parentage information so that would be uncharted territory.
If you were to keep your new varities parentage a secret I guess it could be labeled 5.0 King 2010 (under patent)or even by your new hybrids name. 5.0 King 2010 (Big King)

The fruit which resulted from the seeds of the 5.0 King 2010 would carry the name of your new hybrid.
For example I grew a 4 pound tomato the following season off of your 5.0 King 2010 (Big King), I would name that the 4.0 Perry 2011 (Big King X Open) or the 4.0 Perry 2011 (Big King X Self)

12/28/2009 11:07:29 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Call it whatever you like. But, if it is really big, send me some seeds. Marv

12/29/2009 9:14:02 AM

Belgium

you think anyone cares about how you name a tomato seed? don't make it to difficult like I said before. Just the weight, name of grower and year + cross if possible.
growing it is more important than naming it.
I grew a 5lber this year and I don't care how you name it, just grow it. it was a triple flower , but hey why is this important? the chance that you are gonna get a triple flower from it is the same as one that came from a double flower.

12/29/2009 4:14:00 PM

Belgium

and hey I don't want to get a big pile of crap on me ,this is just my opinion...

12/29/2009 4:16:14 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Since someone did start a thread discussing what we are to name our future tomato seeds and then a few people did show interest. I believe the answer would be Yes.
Surely not everyone but some.

I'm sure that at one time not many really cared about keeping track of Giant pumpkin seeds, then one day a person or a group of people got together, discussed how they thought records should be kept and it grew from there.
I'm sure they didn't all agree at once, some maybe even not at all. I'm sure that throughout the years the rough draft has been fine tuned and we ended up with what we have here today. A pretty fine system of keeping track to.
Thank Goodness someone just got it started.
I can easily see competitive tomato growing becoming as large as Giant Pumpkin growing has, perhaps even much larger.
Not everyone has a 1000 sq. ft. piece of ground to grow a pumpkin on, while many have the room to grow a tomato plant.

The GPC stats page has already been keeping track of Giant tomato weights for the past few years. All we need to do is get competitive growers who weigh in at a GPC event to enter a Standardized form of pedigree for these tomatoes.

It's all voluntary of course, there will always be people who choose not to enter the information as you still see today on the GPC stats page for pumpkins. There will always be competitive growers who do not weigh in at a GPC event.
But it's a start.

I "think" lubadub's whole point is that there is no such named variety called the 5.58 Timm and we should always allow for the original variety name in the description of the tomato or seeds from the tomato.
If it was a Big Zac twenty five generations ago no matter who grew it or what it weighed it is still a Big Zac.

12/29/2009 7:33:17 PM

Baltimore

~Duane~"It is illegal to create a new hybrid from an existing patented variety so new crosses would have to be made from heirloom varieties only. "
that is incorrect.

12/30/2009 3:41:16 AM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Matfox.
Could you please direct me to your source of information so that I may be enlightened?
I've always thought there were no new crosses of the Dill's Atalantic Giant variety due to PVP protection.

12/30/2009 6:01:05 AM

Wv

TOMATO MAN, just as i said thats what we will do. nuff said weight,name,date, and parents if known. TO ALL MEMBERS OF GTG. when you show your tomats, it will be weight,name,and year, parents if known. nuff said GOD BLESS,GLEN

12/30/2009 11:28:54 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I think similar to AG labels would work fine for tomatoes.

I would prefer format of (ex)
7.18 N.Harp 09 Del (5.58 Timm x open)

Del means Delicious. Big Zac I'd put BZ, etc.

We do hold tomato weighoffs here to encourage tomato growing. What is recorded is a circumference measurement and a weight. The entry gets an initial exam for soundness before the person fills out the entry form (too ripe, bleeding juice from a fresh crack etc)

Our club encourages 'if you don't have enough room for a pumpkin, how about a tomato?' (agreeing with Duane)

I'm all for keeping tomato pedigrees. I posted elsewhere a bit about our weighoff. Fair pays $1.50 for a blue ribbon, we pay $100. This winter I'm getting bothered when I'm out shopping by people wanting better tomato seeds or plants :)

Anyone want to do a database like AGGC? I don't have space, time, or resources to...

1/1/2010 12:25:12 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Sounds like a good format to me.

I am currently in discussion with my webmaster regarding the creation of a database for Giant tomato genetics.

1/1/2010 2:00:10 PM