Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Garner, NC

After a good conversation with Chris last night, we came up with a great idea. So here's the short and sweet part of it, soooo, lets bring this up for discussion.

Lets say we can get 50-100 growers to be a part of a genetic trail. All the growers plant the SAME seed( great genetic seed), and SELF pollinate next year. At the end of the year we compare all melons in the test trail based on weight, %heavy, days of growth, size of hollow heart, rind thickness, shape, growth rate and so on. Then we take the best melon, distribute the seeds the following year and try move forward with bettering our genetics.

A good example may be a 260lbs melon from Arkansas, might be the largest, but has a thin rind and a huge void, but a melon from Texas may weigh 210lb and have a 4" rind that's solid and grew for 110days, so the obvious choice would be the Texas melon due to the better genetic traits in said melon.
Self pollinating would be the key, as to make sure all melons we compare are on the same playing field.

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

1/26/2018 1:20:26 PM

The North Coast

I support the idea. We should get good input from the community on how best to pull this off.

1/26/2018 1:52:50 PM

The North Coast

Or possibly two groups. One growing exclusively for one characteristic and the other for a different characteristic. Maybe five years down the road those two melons would be crossed together.

1/26/2018 1:56:23 PM

Liberty nc

Would we all be growing grafts or traditional melons? Or an even combination of both? This is an great ideal.

1/26/2018 2:27:33 PM

sevierville, Tn

Since we want to advance the melons and we as individual growers can't grow a field of 100 plants all the same. We want to get as many growers doing the same seed selfed. Thats as close to what a commerical seed co would do as we can come up with. Choose the best as Todd said above, then do it again the next year.
The grower only has to commit one spot to a great seed they would probally want to do anyway for free !
One big advantage pumpkin growers have is numbers. We can make up for that by working together.

1/26/2018 2:31:45 PM

sevierville, Tn

Andrew, you can do the grafts for everyone ! LOL

1/26/2018 2:33:27 PM

Liberty nc

That would surly give me a lot of practice! What seed do y’all have in mind?

1/26/2018 3:39:24 PM

Grant, AL

This is an awesome idea and right in my wheelhouse!! This is why I ask so many questions of different growers to see how a particular plant and melon grew. I think it is easy to choose a lineup to plant based on melon weight but I think there are several others characteristics that Todd mentioned above that should be considered. I am all in on this Chris and Todd and I will actually grow multiple plants to get additional comparisons. What seed are y'all thinking about? 400 or bust!!!

1/26/2018 4:11:10 PM

Spence***

Home of happy lil plants

Is this an excuse for me to get more 302s?

1/26/2018 4:17:38 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Interesting idea.
Kinda like growing tomatoes.
After several years the variety would be stable and all recessive qualities would be weeded out.
Would grafting really help ?

1/26/2018 4:30:13 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Lol Spence.

1/26/2018 4:31:01 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Say Charles and I both grow the same.
Mine finished at 250(I wish) and was a 4 lobe.
His grew to 200 but was a five lobe.
Wouldn’t the five lobe be better ?

1/26/2018 4:37:16 PM

Grant, AL

Would total plant size be up to each particular grower or do we determine a target plant size beforehand so that every grower grows a melon with roughly the same size plant? Also, each grower that participates would need to save plenty of seeds from that certain melon since it won’t be determined until seasons end which melon in the trial performed best based on different traits.

1/26/2018 4:42:02 PM

Grant, AL

Ben, I think that decision would be determined by several things like growth rate, how many days the melon grew, void size, and maybe weight as a tiebreaker if need be. Am I understanding y’all right Chris and Todd? I think you can definitely hit 250 Ben!

1/26/2018 4:47:23 PM

East Tennessee

What seed y’all thinking.

1/26/2018 6:04:38 PM

sevierville, Tn

we never talked about which seed. Wanted to see if it would be of interest to growers. Lets throw out some seeds. Understand that the owner of said seed would have to be on board for like 300-400 seeds. We figued giving out 4 to each grower to make sure they have a good one to grow.

1/26/2018 6:52:55 PM

NE Arkansas

I'm game

1/26/2018 6:58:02 PM

NE Arkansas

What trait are we looking for fat? Thick rind?

1/26/2018 7:04:44 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

I’m hoping to this year Charles.
I’ve been putting a lot of work into my soil this winter.
Last year was the first year anything had been planted in it.
My garden at my old house had been worked for almost 10 years.
I never got serious about the soil until the year I moved.
This year I’m hoping for big rewards.
PB is 180 uow.

1/26/2018 7:10:16 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

I’m up for it.

1/26/2018 7:23:40 PM

SW Ohio

Sounds interesting. I’m in.

1/26/2018 7:28:25 PM

Liberty nc

Thoughts for melon to use?

302 Kent
251 Kent
283 Dawson
Maybe one of franks camel
What’s y’all opinion on what’s the best all around melon that has enough seeds left for this to happen?

1/26/2018 7:30:30 PM

SW Ohio

Need to look for a melon with the traits we want. Weight of melon should not really matter at this point. Just my 2 cents

1/26/2018 7:33:46 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

I agree with Sue.
I would look at the cross.
Something with a proven history.
Marvin’s 255 for example.
Lots of big melons from that one.
Todd,wasn’t your 316 this year a 255 Mitchell?

1/26/2018 7:51:34 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Frank’s 199.5 is another good one.

1/26/2018 7:56:14 PM

sevierville, Tn

Can't be my past big ones as i don't have enought seeds. This years would be good or one of the past 2nd 3rd etc melons
I like the current seeds like franks from this year for example.
Jeremy lindley had some good ones. 291.4 or 298.5

Jeremy Terry's 290 from last year showed good promise. There were some variations in it but certain ones looked really good.

Marvins 199 is really good.

1/26/2018 8:12:22 PM

sevierville, Tn

Dawsons 283 or the parent ( 231 )
270 Dawson also

1/26/2018 8:14:17 PM

Rookiesmom

Arden, NC

Ummm, suggestion... decide which 3 traits are most important to you. Prioritize those traits. Establish a list of those willing to participate i.e. number of people and lets run this by the geneticist we have coming in March to Winston Salem and get her thoughts. Secondly I would try to find a way to capture the weather data for each of the growers locations and from that sift the info for outliers. The one thing about growing in a field is that all of the plants have the same environmental conditions and the comparisons are more apples to apples or melon to melon if you will.

1/26/2018 8:22:36 PM

Liberty nc

Most of the melon you said Chris I plain to grow this year. Lol. Either would be good. I just know how solid the 283 was an has a lot of the criteria that was mentioned above. The 199 Mitchell was an awesome plant!

1/26/2018 8:28:48 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Marvin’s 199 grew the biggest stump I’ve ever had.
Big around as a soda can.

1/26/2018 8:29:16 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Jeremy’s were selfed.
Can you self a self ?
Lol.

1/26/2018 8:35:21 PM

sevierville, Tn

ben, yes

1/26/2018 8:42:26 PM

Grant, AL

Maybe give each grower that participates only two seeds or maybe many of the growers that will participate will already have seeds from the designated melon and that will cut down on the number of seeds that will need to be distributed. It would probably need to be a melon grown in 2017 since none of those seeds have been grown yet. I don't know if a melon grown 2-3 years ago would have enough available seeds for everyone.

1/26/2018 9:00:24 PM

Garner, NC

My 283 was traditional, medium length with good girth, very solid, 10% heavy but didn’t have a extremely thick rind. Pics of cross section in 2017 diary
270 was grafted, medium length , good girth, but had a air pocket, and don’t remember rind thickness

316 was long! Had ok girth, but didn’t show it because of the length, had air , but did have a 3 1/2” rind.

I think we need a long fat melon that was solid and rind thickness is a bonus

How about any info on other melons
Who has that long, fat, solid melon with a 4” rind with 4-500 seeds??? Lol

1/26/2018 9:09:27 PM

East Tennessee

270 Dawson would be a good one!

1/26/2018 9:11:26 PM

Garner, NC

270 was the 318Kent selfed

1/26/2018 9:24:59 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Got about 400 extra seeds to share Todd?
Lol.

1/26/2018 9:28:59 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Thanks Chris.
I had heard that continuing to self a self was not good.

1/26/2018 9:30:23 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

sounds good i am in.

1/26/2018 9:43:48 PM

Bethlehem CT

ESheel, some crops do deteriorate when continuously selfed, this is called inbreeding depression. (Corn is most known for this) Cucurbits don't seem to exhibit this trait. (at least not for many, many years.)

1/27/2018 7:32:54 AM

Bethlehem CT

I have a question about Rind thickness, what is the advantage to having a thick rind? Does it hold up better? I am not very scientific and don't have any data to back this up, but to me the thick rinded ones would be more likely to be hollow and go light. Am I wrong? What are your thoughts on this?

1/27/2018 7:38:04 AM

Eastern Shore of VA

Thanks John.
That’s what I was thinking of.
I know when you look at commercial varieties for market,thicker rind is better for shipping purposes.

1/27/2018 7:57:36 AM

Fenton, MI

I am in. Also when you guys pick what seed you want to use I know a way to get them to the growers and not (cost a thing.) If you want I will count my 199 seeds may have enough for 50 growers. Maybe do two different seeds. There is a lot of great seeds out but does the grower have that many seeds left.
On the self ONLY do it once, asking for trouble if you do it the 2nd time. As per MSU

1/27/2018 7:58:33 AM

Fenton, MI

big moon, A thicker rind gives the melon more weight.

1/27/2018 8:04:19 AM

SW Ohio

More thoughts this morning..

Current seeds might be better. We want to give all participants the best chance for germination success ( all 4 seeds to germ).

Susie is right. We need to prioritize traits. That will save us so much time for choosing our seed. Some of the traits that have been mentioned might be environmental rather than genetic. My personal pick for top trait would be a long, tall melon with uniform shape all down the length of the melon.

Big moon, a lot of growers feel the heavy% comes from a thick rind as much as solid meat. If you could find a melon that has a very thick rind with no hole, that might be pretty special.

Frank’s 304 might be one to look into. Todd’s 270, Chris’ KY melon, and Marvin’s 199.5 needs a look, too. All of those melons looked to be tall and long and straight. I’m sure there are others we are missing. If you had a long, tall melon this year, post some photos and include a cross cut pic of it cut open.

1/27/2018 8:48:11 AM

SW Ohio

Oops. That should be Todds 283

1/27/2018 8:51:55 AM

Grant, AL

I will grow 2 plants of the selected seed and self one of them and sibb the other to see what the differences are in the two melons

1/27/2018 9:13:32 AM

Fenton, MI

I just talked to Chris and told him that what ever seed or seeds that you come up with. That if he or Todd write a little write up off what you are trying to do and why. We could put it in the news letter so all members would know what is going on.

Then to keep the cost down for who is giving the seeds out, if they would send the seeds to Bill or I we could put that or those seeds in the club free seed packs.

Just so you know I still have over 700 199.5 seeds left as it was a (5 lobe), so I could do some. The 199.5 was a 5 lobe that was out the 316 Edwards ( a 5 lobe) and the male was the 296.5 Barber that was (a 5 lobe) Do to a late set (because I wanted a 5 lobe) the 199.5 was only 63 days old.

But this way would work for what ever seed or seeds you guys come up with.

1/27/2018 10:29:09 AM

Fenton, MI

At 4 seeds per pack I could do 50 packs of 4 seeds. Then maybe some other seed at 4 seeds per pack. That way we would have two to look at. Just a though.

1/27/2018 10:34:38 AM

Garner, NC

Marvin, how solid was the inside of the 199.5?

1/27/2018 10:49:41 AM

Fenton, MI

Todd, It was air tight, but I don't remember how thick the rind was but like said it was only 63 days old so it could have got better if older. It was a shorter wide tall melon. But not long like the 296.5 Barber and not real short like the 316 Edwards. Kind of in between the two.

I am sure it could have looked different if it would have been 90 days or older. It did go heavy to the chart, but Port Elgin didn't put the OTT in the PB list. But the OTT was 187".

1/27/2018 12:04:19 PM

Grant, AL

Will it matter if the plant is a graft or traditionally grown? Would the trial or test be any more accurate if every grower grew the same way, either a grafted or traditional plant? If it does matter, couldn’t the grower just specify either graft or traditional when the comparisons are made?

1/27/2018 12:41:46 PM

East Tennessee

Charles if it has to be grown traditional im out lol

1/27/2018 1:03:12 PM

East Tennessee

I think our fearless leader and Presidents 199.5 is a really good choice and he has them in hand to add them to the membership packs. I cast my vote for it.

1/27/2018 2:04:50 PM

Grant, AL

I do agree with Mama Sue and Susie that traits COULD be determined by environmental factors. Instead of comparing everyone side by side would it make more sense to compare growers in a general area and see what the different traits are for those melons since they will be subjected to the same environmental factors?

1/27/2018 2:06:06 PM

Grant, AL

Me too Jeremy I think Marvin’s 199.5 is a great choice

1/27/2018 2:08:11 PM

Liberty nc

I would give it a vote!

1/27/2018 2:13:14 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Fine with me.

1/27/2018 2:34:31 PM

NE Arkansas

My 253.5 from Kentucky was a sibbed 272.5 K Neptune and had very good shape. 4 lobe and minor air pocket with an exceptional seed count

1/27/2018 2:36:31 PM

NE Arkansas

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=283153

1/27/2018 2:40:16 PM

Fenton, MI

Well Todd & Chris came up with so lets hear from them on what they think. Chris said 4 seeds in a pack for the growers. I can do 50 bags of 4 seeds to put in the membership seed pack and if Jeremy can do 50 packs of 4 seeds of his 253.5 we could go with them. So I would vote also for the 253.5 and that way we would be growing from a melon that was grew each way.

But I am open to any seed you guys want, but would say grow it any way you want ( grafted or traditional ) that way we can see what either seed does each way.

So Todd and Chris lets hear from you on if this is what you wanted when you started this post. But in just a couple days we have got a good start. As always members working with each other we can do a lot, so keep talking.

1/27/2018 4:36:24 PM

Fenton, MI

Just in case you forgot Susan's 256.5 this year was from the 199.5 a traditional plant and went over the chart. Maybe that was from the seed or the fact that she a good grower.

1/27/2018 4:58:04 PM

SW Ohio

Jeremy, thats a good looking melon. Do you have a photo of it cut open?

1/27/2018 5:28:11 PM

sevierville, Tn

i put some pictures up of my 315.5
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=286067
might not be long enough for what we are looking for.
i have enough seeds. :)
i would vote for Marvins 199.5
I like Franks 321 .
brother dave has some that are promising, we have not herd from him yet.

1/27/2018 7:23:40 PM

NE Arkansas

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=283850

This is the 253.5 Lindley 17 insides. It's sibbed with the 272.5 K Neptune that grew the 291.4.

1/27/2018 9:56:25 PM

NE Arkansas

But again it had a great seed count and I'm offering seeds but any of these melons mentioned before are great choices, 315.5 Kent, 283 Dawson, 256 Barber, or 199.5 Mitchell. My 291.4 didn't have a good enough seed count or we could use it. Both melons were tall and fatter from 272.5 K Neptune (291 Kent x 316 Edwards)

1/27/2018 10:00:49 PM

Corryton, TN

My 2 cents. Sue nailed it. Pick the top trait or 2 that can benefit nearly all the melons and focus this first season on it/those. My opinion is, 1. eliminating hollow heart, 2. Increasing female lobe counts consistently on our plants. They could go hand in hand but I think they are separate. Best case scenario each grower would grow multiple plants (more is better) under the same conditions and techniques for accurate comparisons. In the case of hollow heart if the fruit from the selected seed is not markedly superior to the others in YOUR patch grown under the same techniques, etc. it should not be considered for future improvement for “that” trait alone.
Increasing lobe counts “may” be a bit simpler “if” it’s genetically controlled. Plant multiples of the seed above in the same plot and eliminate the young plant that produces fewer early 5+ lobed females. This does not mean the final competition fruit must be a five lobed fruit. In my simple mind the more 5 lobers produced the better your chance of getting that early one set. If it’s genetic it will get passed on from the 4 lober if that’s what you end up with. Document the numbers of lobes for comparison of your plants. Keep an eye open for those plants that produce 6+ lobes. Those could be the future regardless of hollow heart.
I think we need 2 or 3 separate seed lines to see if we can isolate at least 1 superior one that can also go huge. All lines don’t have to be grown by everyone. I know that is not the original plan to get a large group on one seed but I think it’s the fastest way to improvement. I agree that the females in this trial need to be selfed for the future.
My first choice would be Todd’s 283 since it is already selfed but don’t overlook anything especially if there is a crosscut picture that shows a solid cavity

1/28/2018 11:54:16 AM

Corryton, TN

Whatever the group decides I'm on board!

1/28/2018 11:59:34 AM

Garner, NC

Dave, didn’t you have s melon that produced a 6 lobe female?

1/28/2018 12:32:18 PM

sevierville, Tn

Todd, was both the 270 & 283 4 LOBES ? did you see any 5+ on the plants ?
I ask since i did see 5 lobes on one of my 318's this year. Unfortunately i lost the plant that had it .

1/28/2018 12:55:03 PM

Corryton, TN

The 6 was in 2014 on a 165(B).

1/28/2018 1:03:09 PM

Garner, NC

270 was a 4 lobe and 283 was a 5 lobe(picture uploading in diary of the female at pollination)

1/28/2018 1:23:16 PM

NE Arkansas

I will say this, the 214.5 Lindley is a selfed 5 lobe 295.5 Kent. It produced more 5 lobes than 4 lobes. It's also a 2nd generation self as the 295.5 Kent is a 251 Kent x self. So either the 214.5 Lindley or 295.5 Kent would both be good choices. The 295.5 plant that grew the 214.5 Lindley had the main vine broke during a thunderstorm and I made the side the new main and set the fruit at 18 ft. It was a nice fat melon but lacked the length to be huge.

1/28/2018 1:43:42 PM

Garner, NC

Jeremy, the 295 I grew this year also threw me 5 lobes as well. How many 295’s are left???

1/28/2018 1:50:08 PM

Garner, NC

Jeremy, the 295 I grew this year also threw me 5 lobes as well. How many 295’s are left??? The 214.5 being selfed also sounds promising. How long of a melon was the 214? We really need so length in the genetics

1/28/2018 1:52:50 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Todd,the melon in your diary post looks solid.
Very little air pockets.

1/28/2018 3:14:10 PM

NE Arkansas

I'll have to look at the numbers when I get home this afternoon Todd

1/28/2018 3:24:23 PM

NE Arkansas

The 295 was also grown on a test gourd seed that I didn't like last year. It was NOT grown on a Rampart or Bushel gourd.

1/28/2018 3:26:01 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

I like todds 283. reason heart solid.not as explored cross,5lopes. I am not against trying 2 different seed.but what do we need to record .Needs to be same to see what we learn

1/28/2018 4:37:32 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

I like todds 283. reason heart solid.not as explored cross,5lopes. I am not against trying 2 different seed.but what do we need to record .Needs to be same to see what we learn

1/28/2018 4:37:34 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

I like todds 283. reason heart solid.not as explored cross,5lopes. I am not against trying 2 different seed.but what do we need to record .Needs to be same to see what we learn

1/28/2018 4:37:34 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

I like todds 283. reason heart solid.not as explored cross,5lopes. I am not against trying 2 different seed.but what do we need to record .Needs to be same to see what we learn

1/28/2018 4:37:34 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

sorry

1/28/2018 4:38:18 PM

East Tennessee

I think Danny’s record is scratched

1/28/2018 4:50:12 PM

East Tennessee

But if I’m not mistaken he likes Todd’s 283 lol

1/28/2018 4:51:03 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

nicely said .thanks jerermy

1/28/2018 5:14:50 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

nicely said .thanks jerermy

1/28/2018 5:15:55 PM

sevierville, Tn

Glad i'm not bidding against Danny , he got 4 posts in 2 seconds !

1/28/2018 5:33:07 PM

Liberty nc

Lol

1/28/2018 5:37:55 PM

Liberty nc

Grasshopper!

1/28/2018 5:38:06 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Good points Danny.

1/28/2018 6:28:45 PM

SW Ohio

My 256.5 was 199.5 Mitchell x sibb. Not many seeds in it and Im about out after this winters request. My 216.5 is 199.5 Mitchell x self. It had a hole in it big enough to fit my head in so I think we can safely count both out lol

1/28/2018 8:28:59 PM

sevierville, Tn

ok let see if we can bring this to a seed.
From the above talk it looks like we want:
a)BIG... duh lol , ok big potential, thats why we grow.
b)solid... meaning small hole. heavy to the chart.
c)lobes... more is better.
d)thick rind... adds more weight, heavy to the chart
e)some lenght... to break records seems like we need more than a bolling ball shape.

1/28/2018 9:06:16 PM

sevierville, Tn

so if you have a seed that meets at least some of these,
AND we think for this first year we will just have one because we want the highest number of finished melons to compair. If it goes really well next year we could consider doing two.
and enought seeds to do the trial , list your seed and then we will have a vote on a new thread.

1/28/2018 9:09:34 PM

sevierville, Tn

p.s. would REALLY like to hear from Frank before voting ???????

1/28/2018 9:10:29 PM

sevierville, Tn

Todd said he would do his 283

1/28/2018 9:18:05 PM

sevierville, Tn

i can do my 315.5

1/28/2018 9:18:20 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

Marvin’s 199.5.
Jeremy offered his 253.4.
I agree with Chris,would like to hear what Frank and Clyde have to say.

1/28/2018 9:28:10 PM

Liberty nc

I wonder if “frank is listening “

1/28/2018 9:55:48 PM

Grant, AL

Todd's 283 is as solid as you can get but I like Chris's 315.5 better. It looks like it has a thicker rind, it does have a small void but it was 10% heavy(almost 30 lbs heavy to chart). As far as Big potential you can't beat the melons the 251 has pumped out the last few years. I think it is already one of the best seeds ever just by what it has produced in a short period. Is it possible that we settle on a seed with big potential and bring the length into the equation with a "long seed" pollinator?

1/28/2018 10:14:28 PM

Grant, AL

6 of the top 11 melons from 2016 and 8 of the top 11 melons from 2017 have the 251 or one of its offspring in the cross. Talk about BIG POTENTIAL!!

1/28/2018 10:32:38 PM

Fenton, MI

My 199.5 will still be in the freezer if you ever want to use it. I think only 1 seed is best the 1st year. Charles made a good point.

1/29/2018 7:16:37 AM

Bethlehem CT

Todd i am really impressed with your 283. It had a nice tight heart, and a nice red color. These are traits that I like to see in a good eating melon. I know most people don't eat the melons, but I still aim to grow a melon that I can eat. To me it is always a disappointment to cut into a big melon that is very hollow and has light pink flesh with big fibrous strands running through it.

1/29/2018 8:15:59 AM

Liberty nc

283 was also 10% heavy

1/29/2018 8:19:23 AM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

why dont we decide at nc meeting with the help of our doctor on matter.

1/29/2018 8:29:30 AM

sevierville, Tn

Danny, i'm worred that its too late as we will send out with the GWG seed packs. If it isn't then sure, we can get her input !

1/29/2018 8:39:37 AM

Corryton, TN

Been a while since this one hit the scales but it might should be considered or possibly its mother. Don't have a clue if Jake has any seeds available.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=268024

1/29/2018 9:05:54 AM

NE Arkansas

Chris what about the ultra heavy 264 from 2016? The one from Cullman. How was the air pocket in that one?

1/29/2018 9:23:31 AM

NE Arkansas

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=266477

264 Kent 16

1/29/2018 9:50:46 AM

Grant, AL

Jeremy the 264 was an offspring of the 251 too. 302 x 242(16% heavy). That is the biggest melon I have seen in person.

1/29/2018 10:00:21 AM

Andrew Andrew Andrew!!!! this is a long read.

1/29/2018 11:49:21 AM

Eastern Shore of VA

I gave one of those 229 Holloway’s to a friend of mine this year.
He had a melon on it,but it only got up to about 70 lbs or so before the deer got it.
Strong plant.
Good genetics.

1/29/2018 11:54:28 AM

NE Arkansas

Charles you are gonna have to put in some windshield time this season with no AL weigh off.

1/29/2018 12:56:30 PM

Liberty nc

Yep his listening!

1/29/2018 1:25:39 PM

Grant, AL

Yeah we gonna have to make a road trip or two to a few weighoffs definitely lol

1/29/2018 1:28:04 PM

NE Arkansas

Ok So I guess where we are right now on seeds are

315.5 Kent 17 - Fat and Obvious it will go big
295.5 Kent 16 - Plant put out tons of 5 lobes for me and Dawson I selfed a 5 lobe the 214.5 Lindley
283 Dawson 17- 10% Heavy and Solid inside - grown traditional
264 Kent 16- 16% Heavy and was young - small air pocket
253.5 Lindley 17 - Great shape, small air pocket
199.5 Mitchell 16 - Don't know much info on it except it grew 259 Traditional

Now we need to list what traits are important to us
Size = OTT
Air pocket size
Rind Thickness
Fatness = SS
Length = EE
Number of Lobes

1/29/2018 2:06:07 PM

NE Arkansas

If I had to vote right now it would be 283 Dawson or 264 Kent with the 295.5 Kent close behind

1/29/2018 2:18:42 PM

sevierville, Tn

ok Lindley, start filling in the blanks for each.
BTW ,i think marvin said he didn't have enough seeds for all.

1/29/2018 2:21:08 PM

gwarren

Chapel Hill, NC

I vote 283 Dawson, I've got 3 of those.

1/29/2018 3:56:22 PM

Fenton, MI

Chris is right on the 199.5 seed count, so I think it should be out.

1/29/2018 5:36:06 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

What was the cross on the 283 Dawson ?

1/29/2018 6:33:34 PM

East Tennessee

283 Dawson = 231 Dawson x self

1/29/2018 6:38:58 PM

Liberty nc

283 very garner strong!

1/29/2018 6:52:05 PM

Grant, AL

I think the 231 grew his 273 in 2016 also

1/29/2018 7:03:08 PM

East Tennessee

I don’t think I have grown a seed from North Carolina before

1/29/2018 7:15:25 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

How long was the 283 ?

1/29/2018 7:49:02 PM

NE Arkansas

But do you want to JT? Kinda scary if you ask me... Lol

1/29/2018 8:17:39 PM

Grant, AL

Don’t be scared JT!!!Lol

1/29/2018 8:21:06 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

You have photos of your 214.5 Jeremy?
I’m liking the 283 Dawson,but your 253 is a good looking melon also.

1/29/2018 8:40:31 PM

East Tennessee

Im not scared Charles I don’t think it really matters with my skill set, or lack of lol

1/29/2018 8:40:36 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

I think you do alright with your skill set JT.
I’m about the only grower here who has yet to break 200.

1/29/2018 8:45:53 PM

Grant, AL

I bet you right now a pack of your 290.5 seeds that you grow a 300 lb melon this year

1/29/2018 9:00:05 PM

NE Arkansas

He better Charles... He's on Team Lindley

1/29/2018 9:16:31 PM

East Tennessee

300 is the goal Charles, I can’t let team Lindley down. Plenty of seeds all you have to do is say send me some.

1/29/2018 9:20:13 PM

Eastern Shore of VA

What was your 290 like JT?
Air pocket?
Rind thickness ?

1/29/2018 9:23:38 PM

East Tennessee

Pic of it in my 2016 diary November 5. A small air pocket and decent rind thickness. Grew some pretty good melons this past year. I will definitely be growing again.

1/29/2018 9:39:21 PM

Grant, AL

I've still got three seeds but I'll let you know if I need more. I think I'm gonna grow 2 of them this year. Man JT, Lindley already cracking the whip and you can't even plant anything for 3 more months. It sure seems like he's gonna run a tight ship on yalls team lol

1/29/2018 10:01:31 PM

East Tennessee

If all team Lindley grow a pb, and I believe we will, we should be pretty tough to beat. Sorry to put the pressure on you Chris lol.

1/29/2018 10:27:48 PM

Grant, AL

Let's see that would be 350+ for Chris, 300+ for the Jeremy's, really close to 300 for Spence and Andrew. 1500 lbs for a 5 man team would be awesome!! Now that's pressure!

1/29/2018 10:44:54 PM

Peace, Wayne

Owensboro, Ky.

Well Charles...385 for Frank, and within 5#'s (over or under) of 325 for Todd, Susan, Marvin & John would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1650#'s. NOW the pressure is ON!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

1/30/2018 12:22:35 AM

sevierville, Tn

no pressure over here, now back to the seed. remember we are choosing the first 400 lb melon seed for me to grow.

1/30/2018 6:29:46 AM

sevierville, Tn

Frank, you still reading? any thoughts on a seed?

1/30/2018 6:31:13 AM

bigmelons

simpson,KS

The 264 Kent was a beautiful melon for me.
L almost gave up on iy as the deer ate off parts of the plant early on.
But it came back and produced a melon 60 days or less and weighed 192 went heavy and had no air inside.
Good choice I still have many seeds.

1/30/2018 7:49:47 AM

The North Coast

While we can measure different aspects, it is a challenge to grow for any one aspect. % heavy encompasses all positive traits. Feel we should focus @% heavy followed by lobe count. What is the list of recent verifiable heavy melons over 250 pounds? Then, any of them 5 lobers? If there are a few melons that qualify then we take into consideration the circumstances in which it was grown and go with the best. That's the seed.

1/30/2018 7:53:10 AM

SmallTownUSA

Alex, IN

I think this is fascinating! I am in to help if needed.

1/30/2018 8:48:54 AM

All the seeds listed seems to be real good ones. But how are you going to improve the genetics by selfing them?

1/30/2018 9:07:20 AM

NE Arkansas

Frank if you grow 100 and self them all then you take the best 2 and grow them and self them you will be keeping the desirable traits intact and removing the less desirable traits by not growing the other 98. This should help to isolate the desired traits.

1/30/2018 9:24:46 AM

Bethlehem CT

Has there ever been a 300+ pound pumpkin without a big air cavity?

1/30/2018 9:50:15 AM

Grant, AL

Probably the only long and fat melon is Todd's 316. Being grown from Marvin's 255 it is going to have plenty of length. That is probably the closest example we have of a long and fat melon. Not sure if it was a 4 or 5 lobe but it is good on every other trait listed above with the exception of the air pocket. Todd said it had some air inside.

1/30/2018 10:53:48 AM

SW Ohio

Ok Im confused now. I thought the purpose of this trial was to get desirable traits into a melon such as solid meat, rind thickness, shape, etc. Seems the focus is shifting away from that and weight is all we are talking about? I believe the weight will come easily once we can get the desirable traits into the melon. I wasnt looking at this as a one season project. More like 5 years. I guess I misunderstood?

1/30/2018 11:42:14 AM

Liberty nc

No your right sue this would take a few years

1/30/2018 12:32:58 PM

NE Arkansas

Sue you are correct

1/30/2018 1:07:09 PM

sevierville, Tn

John, I posted I picture of my 318 inside. was fair on hole size , but nice and heavy.

1/30/2018 1:08:54 PM

NE Arkansas

I'm just trying to brainstorm melon seeds which most closely display the traits we are aiming for

1/30/2018 1:09:16 PM

sevierville, Tn

sue, yes several years if we want to get it right. So it doesn't have to be weight, but we do want the potential there I believe.

1/30/2018 1:11:49 PM

Corryton, TN

Frank, the first thing I will do is use the test as a pollinator on a different plant or 2. If the test seed produces a superior fruit for the desired trait I’m a generation ahead of the game. Now it all depends if it is a dominate or recessive trait as to whether or not it’s going to show up in the next generation and what genes it got from the mothers side. We will most likely be an additional generation or two down the road before the desired trait is homozygous in a bunch of the fruit at weighoffs.

1/30/2018 1:29:22 PM

Corryton, TN

Something to think about. Let's pretend we choose elimination of hollow heart is what we are targeting. Now also let's suppose there are 3 genes that control the degree of the gap (No idea if it's 2, 3 a bunch more). There is no guarantee any of our test seed will have all the genes available to eliminate the void. This is why I like the idea of a couple of lines to help us get to our target no matter what the trait is.

1/30/2018 1:48:43 PM

NE Arkansas

Dave, let me pose this theory on hollow heart....
I feel the main cause of hollow heart is that a Carolina cross is ripe around dap 60-65, with it still continuing to grow after ripening I feel that as the rind continues to grow it pulls the already ripe flesh apart and creates the air pocket.
Just my theory...

1/30/2018 2:21:15 PM

Dave, many years ago I was told that if you self pollinated for three generations you would end up with the exact genetics that you started with. Whether this is true or not I dont know.

1/30/2018 2:25:49 PM

Garner, NC

I think the 214.5 Lindley would be as good as we can get

251 Kent selfed =295 Kent
295 Kent selfed =214.5 Lindley
so we would be planting a 2nd generation self, giving us a 3rd generation fruit. I grew the 295 last year, lost the stump(my fault) grew a great plant that produced many 5 lobe females.

1/30/2018 2:27:01 PM

sevierville, Tn

But if our one of our goals is no HH, then better to start with one that didn't have much HH.
The 283 dawson was very solid.
the 214 was a smaller melon with moderate HH, so selfed it may be headed in the wrong direction. its a 2nd generation that we don't want if eliminating HH.

1/30/2018 2:41:33 PM

sevierville, Tn

Dave , thats true but the more we plant the better our chances of finding the "one" But i see what you mean.
Just want to get a big enough sample size to make the best choice possible. Multiple seed make it harder to control for grower error or abilities or weather or luck.
I wonder if HH is dominate or recessive ?

1/30/2018 2:45:33 PM

NE Arkansas

Frank if you only grew 1 seed each year from the last generation selfed that may be true, but if you grow 100 seeds from your 332 and self them all in 2018 and take the best of those 100 and grow 100 seeds from that melon and self them all and choose the best one from those 100 you are eliminating the less desirable traits.

1/30/2018 2:47:00 PM

SW Ohio

Two of the important traits listed were Hollow Heart and Lobes. Seems like the 283 Dawson fits those traits as it had no void at all and I think was 5 lobes. So that checks off 2 of the traits we are looking for. What else do we know about it so we can compare for the other traits?

It was certainly in the upper percentile for big melons grown by traditional methods, so we can check that box off, too.

Anything else someone can add about it?

1/30/2018 2:47:52 PM

Corryton, TN

Jeremy,It probably is part of the issue but I believe most of it is genetic. I've seen it start at all stages and I doubt that it heals itself.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=239214

1/30/2018 2:50:44 PM

NE Arkansas

Frank you have grown the 199.5 Mudd many times, I'm sure you have noticed variations in shape, rind thickness, hollow heart, and weight. As shown in the 305 Mudd that was the best 199.5 Mudd grown and selfed. That is what this test will do, it will take a large number say 100 seeds from 1 plant and the best will be picked from them to be grown again and 100 seeds from that plant will be grown to eliminate undesired traits

1/30/2018 2:53:23 PM

sevierville, Tn

Show me a better melon then the 283 to start with.
5 lobes
solid
283

???

1/30/2018 2:53:35 PM

sevierville, Tn

and it was selfed !

1/30/2018 2:54:41 PM

sevierville, Tn

Frank were any of yours 5 lobes ??

1/30/2018 2:55:45 PM

Corryton, TN

At the end of 3 generations of selfing all the seeds from a melon would be much closer to identical genetically but they would not be the same as the original plant.

1/30/2018 2:56:57 PM

NE Arkansas

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=284802

Here's the 262.0 Lindley (232.75 Lindley x self), it had very little hollow heat and the mother had no HH. It was grown in 150 sq ft. If it had better shape I would recommend it but it had quite the taper on the blossom end.

1/30/2018 2:59:00 PM

321 was 5 lobe

1/30/2018 3:01:56 PM

Corryton, TN

Just guessing but logically part of the genes for HH have to be at least partially dominate. That's why they are so hard to eliminate.

1/30/2018 3:04:24 PM

Corryton, TN

Correction. Recessive

1/30/2018 3:06:20 PM

Corryton, TN

Had to put it on a punett square. I think I was right the first time. Dominate

1/30/2018 3:09:33 PM

East Tennessee

For the desirable traits we seem to be looking for looks to me like the 283 would be a good choice.

1/30/2018 3:11:08 PM

sevierville, Tn

Makes sence , thats why we keep seeing it. Its probally in everyone. So if we keep selfing only no HH, then we may be able to get rid of alot of it.

1/30/2018 3:11:24 PM

Corryton, TN

If it's genetic only, then yes. The real gain will be crossing these solid melons onto the best we can grow of multiple lines and then crossing those f1's to each other or back to a HH free line. Same sort of thing some of us have been doing with squash.

1/30/2018 3:41:27 PM

Grant, AL

OK so the 283 was grown from the 231 Dawson and was solid inside and is a great choice for this trial. I believe the 231 grew Todd's 273 in 2016 also. I wonder if the 273 was solid inside also? Also, do you think it is possible to use a solid melon like the 283 as a pollinator to pollinate a melon that has a history of HH in an attempt to correct that deficiency?

1/30/2018 3:54:56 PM

sevierville, Tn

the HH will keep reoccouring until its bred out over several generations. 1 cross may "hide" it for a generation, but it will come back like the terminator ! LOL

1/30/2018 3:59:14 PM

Corryton, TN

Let's suppose only 3 genes are involved in HH and the 283 is homozygous for 2 and heterozygous for the 3rd. Roughly half the seeds should produce fruit that should be SOLID. the other half would look similar to the 283 parent. This is why we suggesting selfing. If it produces a solid fruit no more selfing should be needed. Pick out the ones that you like best and grow and cross them into what you like best.

Again I have no idea how many genes actually are involved.

1/30/2018 4:00:36 PM

Corryton, TN

Absolutely Charles. Depending on the genes in the mother it could improve the offspring considerably. That's the whole idea of this test.

1/30/2018 4:04:13 PM

Liberty nc

Looks like the 283 should be the one. May also give me a run for Hollywood’s title!

1/30/2018 4:10:37 PM

Grant, AL

So if we self only the melons that have proven to be solid inside like the 283 and use those same solid melons as pollinators for melons with varying degrees of HH then we may be able to genetically control it somewhat? Am I picking up what y'all are puting down Dave?

1/30/2018 4:32:03 PM

Corryton, TN

It will not affect the fruit you are pollinating (mother). only the seeds from that cross have the potential to have less HH but that to depends on the genetic makeup of the "mother".

1/30/2018 4:44:12 PM

Grant, AL

So Chris is it voting time or does everyone pretty much agree the 283 is the best seed of choice?

1/30/2018 5:10:19 PM

sevierville, Tn

this has been a great topic. Longest i think too !
ok then lets vote.
if you forgot what were voting on , re read from the top ! LOL
i will put up a new thread. iF you have more comments keep going here.

1/30/2018 5:16:18 PM

Grant, AL

Good luck if you did forget!LOL

1/30/2018 5:36:20 PM

Spring Hope, N.C. - USA

can we design a common chart for all to go by .like rain fall .growth,rootstock?

1/31/2018 7:57:53 AM

The North Coast

Heya Todd. Why in the world did you grow a seed this last year that came from a melon that went 3% light? The 231 Dawson went -3%. What did see in it?

1/31/2018 8:39:28 AM

Corryton, TN

Just a note about the 283. I was fortunate enough to harvest the seeds from her. The seed count was a fair bit lower than most I've opened. The ends did not have seeds OR blanks like you see in most melons just solid meat. Brown seeds so even the smallest of blanks could be detected of which there were very few. One of the things I liked best there was virtually no air around the seeds. If you've cut many open you know some melons have a little cave each seed sits in. I suspect a separate gene or a byproduct of HH.

1/31/2018 8:53:05 AM

SW Ohio

Good info Dave!

1/31/2018 6:59:05 PM

Garner, NC

Nate, the 231 vine rotted about day 60-70 and weighted 246 when picked. I brought her in the house, (wife wasn’t super happy) to keep it cool for 6 weeks until the NCSF weighoff.

1/31/2018 8:07:02 PM

Grant, AL

Todd, so the 231 could have been a lot bigger if vine wouldn't have rotted and was actually 3% heavy at picking. The mother seed of the 231 is the 316 Edwards right?

1/31/2018 8:30:58 PM

Garner, NC

Yes, 316Edwards by the 260Clementz

1/31/2018 8:55:36 PM

Grant, AL

How solid internally was the 231 Todd?

1/31/2018 9:08:51 PM

Garner, NC

Charles, there’s a photo of the cross section in my 2018 diary

1/31/2018 9:16:28 PM

Grant, AL

I was wondering about the actual 231 melon. The only photo I saw was of your 283

1/31/2018 9:45:17 PM

Garner, NC

Sorry Charles, at the time the 231 was most the most solid melon I’d ever grown( not as solid as the 283) and my first heavy to chart melon. Sucks I had to wait 6 weeks and lose the extra weight. I normally grow air bags! Lol. The 273 was grown off the 231, and went 2% light, but was a really long melon

1/31/2018 10:21:21 PM

Grant, AL

I think you sent me seeds from the 231 last year so I’m planning on growing it and probably a few 283s. One for the trial and one to experiment with lol. Thanks Todd

2/1/2018 6:50:10 AM

Fenton, MI

I just wanted to be number 200 t post here!!!! This has been good.

2/1/2018 7:32:04 AM