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Pataskala,OH

The soil im my area has really hard clay in it. What can I do to loosen the clay? Gypsum?

11/3/2008 4:03:15 PM

Rhode Island

find a farmer in your area with a tractor and a "SUBSOILER

THE SUBSOILER GOES ABOUT 18 INCHES BELOW THE SURFACE AND RIPS UP THE HARD PAN CREATING A MUCHLOOSER AIRY SOIL.

THEN YOU CAN ADD YOU AMMENDMENTS

11/4/2008 7:02:27 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Ditto Paps...Some regions might call it a chisel plow.

11/4/2008 8:36:18 AM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

If you cant get a subsoiler into the yard, What dad and I did was get a sharp shooter shovel and dig it by hand. A sharp shooter goes down about 16 inches deep you do it by hand but it works.

11/4/2008 10:18:08 AM

Utah

along the same lines as everyone else... double digging also works well... if you have a compost pile, add a shovel full of compost at the bottom of the trench then one of clay, then another of compost then the last one of clay.

11/4/2008 2:59:41 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

double dig was what I was thinking too...dig the first hole 16 inches..fill half with compost..keep working all the way through the patch.

11/4/2008 7:37:51 PM

Going Green

Hardpan clay has a surface tension which does not allow roots to spread or gather nutrients. If one applys 1 pound granular laundry detergent per 5000 square feet and waters it in you will see drastic temporary results. The other ammendments are the correct way to go, but they correction of the soil can take years. There is no permament effects of adding the detergent to the soil and it should be applied every 60 days of growing season. You will get a lot of arguments from people on this web-site who obviously are more knowledgable and smater than me. I rely on professional and they tell me that the detergent is temporary with little or no negative effects and no long term damage!

11/5/2008 9:52:55 PM

Ontario, Canada.

This is probably more work than you wish to do. Spend 500 bucks or more to dig it up and import new soil. Ideally you want about 16 to 20" of good sandy loam above the hard pan layer. Standard sub soiling will work to a certain degree. However you can only gain so much if your top soil layers are too thin.

Here is an extreme solution.

1. Install weeping tile at the clay layer.
2. Then build up with imported soil consisting of 40% slit 40% sand and 10% OM and 10% clay.
3. Relieve sub soil compaction of machinery by deep digging to 18" with a mini excavator. Pull up to relieve under burden tension then lower the bucket straight down and pull right back out without removing any soil.
4. Do not mix the lower layer clay with the new soil.

11/6/2008 12:12:05 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

m3, is laundry detergent a heavily phos type thing....doesn't phos knock down (destroy) the mychroyzzaie (sp?) in our soil? This is not a claim to be more knowledgable, or to be an argument. I think we should be moving towards a more substainable soil than a temporary solution. (Even if the "professionals" tell you there is no long term damage). I have a hard time getting a handle on the terminology "little or no negative effects and no long term damage"...sort of leads me to think "some" damage is being done?? I do appreciate all input, as it helps me to learn. Peace, Wayne

11/6/2008 12:59:46 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=98983

11/6/2008 6:29:22 AM

President - GPC

Do you remember this classic piece of 'science' from your primary schools days? Take a milk bottle, or other transparent bottle, and fill to about one-third of its volume with your garden soil.
Then, fill the bottle to two-thirds full with water, and shake vigourously for a minute or so, remembering to keep one hand over the top. Place on a level surface and allow to settle. After a few minutes, the grits and heavier sands in the soil will sink to the bottom of the bottle, with the finer sands, silts and clays taking much longer to settle. The organic matter, sometimes referred to as 'humus', will float at the surface of the water.
This simple experiment will give you a visual indication of the nature of your soil, showing the approximate proportions of sands, clays and humus. An 'ideal' soil would contain roughly one-third humus, one-third clays and silts, and one-third sands and grits. After a few hours or so, it should become apparent which constituents are lacking in your soil.

11/7/2008 1:36:18 PM

President - GPC

Adding Sands/Grits

Working a sharp, grit sand into the soil, will not only improve the drainage characteristics of the soil, but will also improve the aeration of the soil, render it easier to work, and encourage strong root formation by your plants.


A typical grit sand - penny used for scale Choose a sharp or gritty sand, not a building or a soft sand, which contain too many 'fines' and clay particles. If the sand is from a marine source, it should be washed to remove all salts. A good grit sand will contain a reasonable amount of tiny pebbles in the 3-6mm size range, along with smaller sand grains, but less than 3% clay particulates. Your local Builders' Merchant will most likely stock a grit sand, sometimes called a 'concreting' sand, in 40kg bags that can be carried in a car, and in 1 tonne 'agg-bags' that can be delivered to your home by the merchant's delivery wagon. Garden Centres also stock 'horticultural sands' in 25kg or 40kg bags, although they are often more expensive than Builders' Merchants.

More info will be available in our RMGVG newsletter for this spring....we have nothing but hard pan clay in COlorado

11/7/2008 1:39:08 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

m3f2..a question for you. What is the laundry detergent supposed to do? I see that you mentioned it in your diary at http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=97245

11/7/2008 4:50:32 PM

Going Green

The purpose of the detergent is to break down the surface tension of the water, making the water wetter and allowing it to penetrate the tight clay soil. Once it breaks down the surface tension the water will disolve the nutrients which prior to application of granular laundry detergent were unavailable to the plant.

1 pound granular laundry detergent per 5000 sq ft garden

11/7/2008 9:31:30 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Thanks.

11/7/2008 10:03:08 PM

Sheridan . NY

nic-- I suggest 10 inchs of compost--8ozs of molasses and 4oz's of Symbex---see PDF - ON Symbex on my web site www.candjfert.com --go to our products -- to pumpkin fert program-- PDF Symbex---craig

11/8/2008 7:49:39 AM

Going Green

TO PEACE, WAYNE.....this discusses the phosphorus/mycrohazzaize relationship
http://bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=20&p=275550

11/8/2008 4:01:05 PM

Linden,PA

Check out this site for a radish cover crop for next year.
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/2005/1105/winterradish/bowman.shtml

11/9/2008 7:28:19 AM

Pataskala,OH

interesting

11/9/2008 7:44:19 AM

southwest MO

Modern day laundry detergents have no Phosphates in them. The EPA did away with that years ago. Remember lake Erie?? Automatic dish washing detergent still has a few % Phos. but also contains a lot of Chlorine. Do not use this.
At 1 pound per 5,000 sq. ft. even if it where 1/2 phos. it would do nothing to effect Mycorrizae.
Surfactants like laundry detergents are biodegradable. They work by pulling the soil particles apart and holding them in suspension. Many also contain enzymes... In the spring when the soil is still cool and biological activity is low these could benefit your soil also.
I put a picture up a bit ago with a good texture of sand to use for amending. Sand comes with so many names it can be confusing if you try to over analyze it.

11/9/2008 8:45:42 AM

President - GPC

Boy Genius.....URL link to the pic? please thx

11/10/2008 9:34:16 AM

southwest MO

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/displayphoto.asp?pid=6038&gid=-28855
WiZ, here is the link to the "masonary sand" I added this fall. You could easily see and feel the individual grains. It would be considered coarse to vey coarse.
Sand is commonly divided into five sub-categories based on size: very fine sand (1/16 - 1/8 mm diameter), fine sand (1/8 mm - 1/4 mm), medium sand (1/4 mm - 1/2 mm), coarse sand (1/2 mm - 1 mm), and very coarse sand (1 mm - 2 mm).

11/10/2008 4:19:40 PM

President - GPC

Thanks Boy Genius...picture is worth a thousand wordZ.... did you Ph test yours?

11/15/2008 5:09:52 PM

southwest MO

Wiz it was so clean it just took on the pH of the DI water.

11/15/2008 10:05:11 PM