From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Kenyon, Mn.

First let me say that I don't FEEL that I need to PROVE ANYTHING. Show me the epidemiological studies on the chemicals you advocate, which by the way, reviewing posts from the past have varied from year to year, and even amount to a virtual Chemical De Jour( and for those who aren't as educated as Kyle, that means from day} I chose to ignore the Pompous Rhetoric that you spilled forth Kyle, Tremor, do You realize how many times the chemicals mentioned just happen to be chemicals that you distibute? Well I have been going over past posts this morning, and I do.Coining a phrase you wrote: It's Your Patch, Your decision
I don't care if you or anyone is not concerned with your childrens safety or the enviroment, but All sides of any story should be told.So I will post some statements, facts and links here and instead of You making me do the research, Why don't you look past your pamphlets and brochures and READ! Oh and by the way, unless the criteria for "licensed applicator" has changed, it used to consist of a small group of farmers, chemical company reps., coffee, donuts and a sign-up sheet to show you Did attend and that you can SIGN YOUR NAME

5/14/2004 10:53:42 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Children have nearly 7 times the risk of developing Leukemia when pesticides are used in their homes or gardens. Sources: "Children's Environmental Health 1998 Report Card" -Physicians for Social Responsibilty; "Pesticides" - Rea, William J., 1996, Journal of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine 6, 55-124.; Lowengart, et al., 1987, Journal of National Cancer Institute, 79: 39-46

5/14/2004 10:54:16 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

in regards to the so called safety tests conducted by chemical companies on pesticides, there is unfortunately no consideration given to the fact that the developing fetus has been reported to be 50 times more vulnerable to the harm of cancer causing chemicals. Also, the EPA does not take into account that a newborn child does not develop an efficient blood brain barrier until at least one year after birth. The blood brain barrier functions to keep toxic substances out of the brain and is believed to be the reason why epilepsy is shown to be an increased risk factor for developing brain cancer, as epileptic patients have been found to have lower blood brain barrier function.

Although there are many chemicals a child can be exposed to which can damage his/her chromosome structure, we need to first investigate chemicals the child may have been exposed to on a repeated basis. Therefore, our researchers must look at pesticides which may have been applied inside or around the homes (such as chlordane) as well as pesticides that may have been used in agriculture in the nearby area.
Wayne Sinclair, M.D.
Board Certified Immunology
Vero Beach, Florida

5/14/2004 10:55:07 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Toronto, ON— The Ontario College of Family Physicians (OCFP) is strongly recommending that people reduce their exposure to pesticides wherever possible after releasing a comprehensive review of research on the effects of pesticides on human health. Released today, the review shows consistent links to serious illnesses such as cancer, reproductive problems and neurological diseases, among others. The study also shows that children are particularly vulnerable to pesticides.

Shelia Hoar Zahm and Mary H. Ward
Occupational Epidemiology Branch, Division of Cancer Etiology, National Cancer Institute, Rockville, Maryland

5/14/2004 10:55:45 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

NO RESEARCH SOUTHERN??
Pesticides and Childhood Cancer
References

Bennett, Michael. 1979. Effect of Age on Immune Function in Terms of Chemically Induced Cancers. Environmental Health Perspectives. 29:17-22.

Buckley, Jonathan D. et al. 1989. Occupational Exposures of Parents of Children with Acute Nonlymphocytic Leukemia: A Report from the Children's Cancer Study Group. Cancer Research. 49:4030-4037. July 15, 1989.

Davis, James et al. 1993. Family Pesticide Use and Childhood Brain Cancer. Environmental Contamination and Toxicology. 24:87-92.

Ferris, Benjamin Jr. et al. 1985. Effects of Passive Smoking on Health of Children. Environmental Health Perspectives. 62:289-295.

Gold, Ellen et al. 1979. Risk Factors for Brain Tumors in Children. American Journal of Epidemiology. 109(3):309-319.

Grufferman, Seymour et al. 1982. Environmental Factors in the Etiology of Rhabdomyosarcoma in Childhood. JNCI. 68(1):107-113. January 1982.

Hemminki, K. et al. 1981. Childhood Cancer and Parental Occupation in Finland. Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health. 35:11-15.

Herrmann, Jurgen and Rafael Elejalde. 1979. Clinical Genetics and Pediatric Neoplasms: Pathogenetic and Etiologic Perspectives. National Cancer Institute Monograph No. 51. p. 7-18.

Hirokadzu, Kodama and Ota Hideo. 1980. Transfer of Polychlorinated Biphenyls to Infants from their Mothers. Archives of Environmental Health. 35(2):95-100. March/April 1980.

Leiss, Jack and David Savitz. 1995. Home Pesticide Use and Childhood Cancer: A Case-Control Study. American Journal of Public Health. 85(2):249-252. February 1995.

Lindy, M. et al. 1991. Parental Occupational Exposures and Risk of Childhood Cancer: A Review. American Journal of Industrial Medicine. 20:17-35.

5/14/2004 10:57:45 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Lowengart, Ruth et al. 1987. Childhood Leukemia and Parents' Occupational and Home Exposures. JNCL. 79(1):39-46. July 1987.

Pelkonen, Olavi. Biotransformation of Xenobiotics in the Fetus. Pharmac Ther. 10:261-281.

Peters, John M. et al. 1981. Brain Tumors in Children and Occupational Exposure of Parents. Science. 213:235-237. July 10, 1981.

Preston-Martin, Susan et al. 1982. N-Nitroso Compounds and Childhood Brain Tumors: A Case-Control Study. Cancer research. 42:5240-5245. December 1982.

Rice, Jerry. 1979. Perinatal Period and Pregnancy: Intervals of High Risk for Chemical Carcinogens. Environmental Health Perspectives. 29:23-27. April 1979.

Riyat, M. S. et al. 1990. Childhood Aplastic Anaemia in Kenya. East African Medical Journal. p. 264-272. April 1990.

Sandler, Dale et al. 1985. Cancer Risk in Adulthood from Early Life Exposure to Parents' Smoking. AJPH. 75(5):487-492. May 1985.

Savitz, David and Jianhua Chen. 1990. Parental Occupation and Childhood Cancer: Review of Epidemiologic Studies. Environmental Health Perspectives. 88:325-337.

Schwartz, David et al. 1986. Parental Occupation and Birth Outcome in an Agricultural Community. Scand J Work Environ Health. 12:51-54.

Xiao, Ou Shu et al. 1988. A Population-Based Case-Control Study of Childhood Leukemia in Shanghai. National Cancer Institute: Bethesda, MD. 62:635-644. August 1, 1988.

5/14/2004 10:58:07 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

And some Links: www.nrdc.org/health/kids/nfarm.asp

/www.nrdc.org/health/kids/kidscancer/kidscancer1.asp

http://www.uni.edu/yardsforkids/childrenandpesticides.html

5/14/2004 10:59:04 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

bring her on boy's

5/14/2004 11:04:00 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Mr. Bumpy I hope when you go to the grocery store you are shopping in the certified organic isle. I am one for reduced pesticide use also. Keep your web searches going, and look at an analysis of chemical residue on your average Carrot, Apple or and fresh produce from the store. Don't let your kids crawl around on that nicely carpeted floor either. Tremor or Kyle has never advocated the safe unwarranted use of these chemicals. If you wish to go the organic way that is your choice. This Pumpkin Community does not take well to mud slinging, and I feel you are Barking loudly up the wrong tree. Shannon

5/14/2004 11:12:15 AM

Webster, NY

I guess if you're just trying to stir things up and start an argument, you're doing a good job. I've never heard either Tremor or Southern say, "this is what you have to do". Generally people ask what will work and they tell them. It's up to the individual to use it or not. That's all I'm going to say about this and this post.

Dave

5/14/2004 11:28:08 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

I don't believe there is any mud slinging involved, they attacked, I responded, nor did I say that either of them advocated the unwarranted use of chemicals, I do shop and live organically, I do if the condition warrants use something against organic beliefs, They wanted facts. And I am not so sure that I have the wrong tree

5/14/2004 11:32:18 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

I for one have to thank Tremor for all of his help when I needed a tuff question answered. Southern and Himself have contributed much to this site and their input is always welcome.

Life is full of choices....so put out that Marlboro, spit out that whisky, get those paint chips out of your kids mouth and keep your pumpkins plants away from high voltage power lines.

5/14/2004 11:42:10 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

This was bound to happen some day. As it always does.

This statement, clipped from my own post, is not a personal attack.

"Prove it. That's a sensational newspaper headline with (no) basis in fact or truth. Show me the evidence."

Mr. B, with all due respect, the NRDC is very well intentioned. But they are what they are. They're a group of Liberal lobbyists. Nothing more. They are free to quote anyone they want including me. But they'd never do that.

I don't quote Poiltical Action Committees.

But I can do this stuff with my eyes close so here it comes.

5/14/2004 12:10:18 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Here's a link to the United States Food & Drug Adeministration website. This centers on the *ONLY* currently registered pesticide class that can even be made into a carcinogen. My most often used fungicide, Mancozeb is in this class. Do I sound like an idiot? I have a 7 year old son. Do you think I'm trying to kill him?

Read.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00113.html

You have to heat Mancozeb to temperatures where we would spontaneously combust before EBDC residues become carcinogens. Seems to me that death by fire is quicker than the remote chance of getting cancer from sleeping 50 feet from a pumpkin patch treated with Mancozeb.

5/14/2004 12:14:06 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Did you know that Celery contains a known Carcinogen? I just drank a glass of V8 juice. Of course I also had a Marlboro. Think I'm gonna die? You bet. EWe all do sooner or later. But since the post WW2 advent of modern pharmaceuticals & pesticides, we've all been living a whole lot longer.

http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Enviro/enpestic.htm

5/14/2004 12:16:55 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The National Cancer Institute finds all major cancers in decline. They've been decling at rates not consitent with the decline in pesticide consumption either.

Thank God & modern medicine.

http://cancer.gov/newscenter/reportnation

5/14/2004 12:21:00 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Sign My Name? I've held the most difficult to obtain commercial pesticide licenses to get in the World since 1985 & 1988 respectively. The 3A before it was made easier, used to have a 20% pass rate. 70% of all applicators here failed 2 or more times. I passed the first time.

Back then 150 safety questions.
150 technical questions.
20 slides.
Oral exam before the review board.

Check yourself if you want. Lic # S-2709 or 62451

http://dep.state.ct.us/wst/prgactiv.htm

CT applicator names aren't online. Call them instead.

1-860-424-3369 ask for Linda Schmidt ro Chris Mullin

5/14/2004 12:30:52 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

he Eleventh Report on Carcinogens is due out next month. For now, here is the link to the most recent available.
The Tenth Report on Carcinogens.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/roc/toc10.html

If folks follow this stuff like I do, you will not the removal of one discontinued herbicide & the addition of "WOOD DUST" to the 10th Report.

We better all make sure we don't treat our pumpkins with wood dust. I just made a Pine Wood Derby car with my only son Stephen this winter. We race it again for the final time tomorrow at the State Championship. Maybe for his health, I should just cancel the whole thing though.

5/14/2004 12:44:57 PM

berkshire M.A.

I feel that Tremor has provided more info on products to us growers that are not licensed and can not get restricted chemials.And has help out with what chemicals that can be use ,how to ,and the safety factors of these products .I have never seen him or Southern push any thing on to the other growers.I have see them favor things but not pushed. I have 2 kids my self. They are no were near the patch or outside when i spray and they NEVER go into the patch at any time .For me i do trust what Tremor has to say and it is my choice to use what he recomends.So if you have kids around,don't spry or don't have them around when you do.Take a look at what you are doing and use a little common scene when applying chemicals,or get someone that can help you!!.You or kids can get cancer from anything these days ,being second hand smoke ,where you live, going to the bathroom to much ,next thing you know they will link cancer to sleeping or working to much,who knows what's next.If you don't want to use the chemicals use the other produce out there ,oils ,soaps ,and other products you can find in any Organic catalog.I would start looking back on this site and see how much helpful info.Tremor has put up and in between the chats that Tremor and Southern has had will help reveal helpful info. on some of the chemicals .Thats all for now and it does sound like you are barking up the wrong tree!

Bill

5/14/2004 12:49:41 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Mr. B,

I don't advocate the over use of pesticides. Indeed, in my line of work, only the safest & most responsible use suits my fancy. Read all the posts where I've lectured people to use lower rates of chemcials. And to try the newer "reduced risk" pesticides. And yet one guy who toasted his own plants last yuear after applying 5 times the rate I recommended still won't forgive me. I have it in writoing too. But I'd never post it.

Just this week I was the featured speaker at a New York State DEC pesticide applicators recertification seminar. At a break, some of us were gathered outside having a smoke when the states overseer came out to join us. He commented to out local Cornell Rep that I likely had advised careful IPM measures & chemcial reductions to appease his presence. To which she answered in a LOUD voice that if he got out more often & did his job, then he'd know that I ALWAYS advocate responsible use of pesticides & only when required.

5/14/2004 1:03:46 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Regarding my concern for pesticides & safety.

The most important issue is to first be safe to ourselves, children, pets, & environment. But I am fed up to my ears of people condemning things I know they have little to no education in nor professional knowlege. This is my career field. I am the most often sought out resource in the Metro NY area for good reason. Between TV & vRadio I've been broadcast to millions on about a half dozen occasions. I never lie or guess. I never answer until I know. If I don't know, I'll find out. All I have out here is my face. (I should write a book or something huh?)

I'm not beating up on you. Just defending my own livlihood & some poor growers chances of a succesful year that is very likely to be cut short by SVB in several weeks.

I'm done ranting for now. Perhaps if we want to fight some more we should do it off board.

I'm sorry if my words offend.

Steve

sls247@lesco.com

5/14/2004 1:05:08 PM

Pulaski Tn blkcloud@igiles.net

i like ueing chemicals, and every question i have ever axed..both of them have been more than helpful in answering it..to be honest i dont think the chemicals i put on my garden has ever once efff.. ef.. e/'; effcr..effected me at all...

5/14/2004 1:05:35 PM

Wisconsin

I will throw out another perspective. I am an Internal Medicine Physician. I absolutely agree with the concern for pesticide use and do everything that I can to mimimize the use in my patch. On the other hand, I also dislike watching all my hard work go down to disease (been there, done that). I have concluded that it is nearly impossible to grow these plants without some pesticide use. There certainly never seems to be any "organic growers" up at the scales at the end of the weighoffs.

Here is what I do. I keep my pumpkin patch far away from my wifes vegetable garden. I spray and apply pesticides in the lowest concentrations and frequencies possible. I only spray in the late evening when there is no wind. I have a fence around my patch (mostly for the deer) but it also keeps the kids out (especially in the first 24hrs after spraying). I use a respirator while spraying and also change into long sleeve shirts and long pants. I actually try to shower right after spraying and wash my clothes to minimize skin contact. Of course, I don't eat giant pumpkin pie.

To put things in perspective, I spent alot more time concentrating on more important risk factors like smoking, obesity, fatty foods, exercise, seatbelts, bike helmets ,etc. (I left out beer drinking - who wants to live forever).

For what it is worth, I have a similiar philosophy to medicine. I try to avoid medications for my patients unless the benefits far outweight the risks.

One last thought. I think that pumpkin growers are more responsible than most of the general public in terms of lawn and garden chemical usage. Most of us have at least made some effort to understand the specific diseases we are trying to prevent and have tried to focus our use of pesticides appropriatly. I have more concern about the general public that are using pesticides and herbicides at random without a clue as to what they are doing. Maybe this illustrates a regulatory problem in this country.

5/14/2004 1:51:59 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

WOW! Just got home from work and see someone got their fur rubbed the wrong way :0)
I see you posted quite a few "article" references, and I see a mention here and there regarding epidemiological studies. I believe that if I were to look those up, especially the Leiss/Savitz case-control study, that I would find the subject groups to be small, and followed short-term. Probably lots of inferences to, and "projections" of, the dangers of pesticide use and the health hazards to childeren.
Well guess what? That's pretty common sense stuff, no research there needed. But to say "children are X times more likely to....due to pesticide/chemicals use around the home" is fallible. There are so many other environmental, social, and cultural factors involved throughout one's lives, that it is near impossible to make that claim and *prove* it. Show me 1 article or epi study where they *proved* it?
Common sense says to use chemicals with care around "anyone", especially children. Yea, they (chemicals) could cause damage and potential death, with intentional or unintentional mishandling. The issue for me was your statement, and I stand by my reply that you should "prove" it if you're going to be so adamant about it. Someone's opinion means nothing, show me beyond a reasonable doubt that all kids in environments such as was stated, are X times more likely to die early.
Can you do that?
I didn't attack you, I made an educated response....you weren't slandered in any way. I don't much appreciate your attempt at "showing me up" when in fact you still did not *prove* a thing. I see by your responses and comments in this thread that you don't seem to care much about civility and educated conversation.
If you were trying to demean Steve and I with your harsh words, you failed. I stand by my previous comments.

5/14/2004 2:35:52 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Oh, and I'm a licensed pesticide applicator too...but you have to do more in Tennessee than just show up, check requirements please.
I also am a concerned father and responsible chemical user.
Anything else you'd like to try and hammer me with Phil?

5/14/2004 2:39:58 PM

Indiana

Yee Haw....I'm officially starting the ticket sales for the PPV even this Saturday! Humans are the only species allowed to survive a trip to my patch. The lump on the back is a souvenir of the experience.

Tom

5/14/2004 2:58:25 PM

Indiana

I am kinda curious how current these references are? 1981 is more than likely no longer adequate. I'm not allowed to use references from before 2000 on a lot of my papers in school. The newer class products that I have seen them praising such as Scimitar, Warrior, Triazicide(lamda cyhalothorin), and Quadris are much safer than the old products that would have been in the 80's references. After all the great Jerry Rose said "this stuff is so safe you can almost drink it."

5/14/2004 3:04:17 PM

South Hill, Virginia

:)

5/14/2004 3:28:29 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

http://www.okanogan1.com/natural/chem/toxics.htm

5/14/2004 4:02:02 PM

Joliet, IL

tremor, i have always appreciated your input.
keep up the good work.
shazzy

5/14/2004 4:14:02 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

These folks are making a darn snappy good living off donations driven by fear of the unknown relinquished by people who are wealthier than they are educated.

Does the unsuspecting donor even realize that Chlordane was being phased out in 1978 & was gone by 1985?

As Tom has noted, most of these studies are now 20-25 years old?

Here is another PAC that names the Michael Bennett, 1979 study. Who is this guy & isn't he dead?

http://www.ewg.org/

Oops. Looks like he's hanging in there. If this is him.

http://www8.utsouthwestern.edu/findfac/professional/0,2356,10539,00.html

Well. I called Michael Bennett & got his voice mail. Maybe later.

5/14/2004 4:25:33 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I stand by Kyle and Steve on this one. They promote responsible use and responsible growers.

5/14/2004 4:32:00 PM

wilmington,ma.

Steve,I don't get on to often but here's my coment!frigg um. if they don't like it don't read it!!Both you and Kile do a lot of good for alot of people. Like I said FRIGGUM!!!

5/14/2004 4:37:54 PM

New Brunswick, Canada

Big decisions indeed for all southern growers...I'm glad I live up north where insecticides and fungicides are not needed. I don't know what a cucumber beetle or squash vine borer looks like(and I don't want to know)...not sure if I would grow pumpkins if serious decisions such as these mentioned would have to be made.

5/14/2004 5:04:06 PM

San Diego

The healthier someone lives (lack of exposure to chemicals, organic whole foods, not smoking ,drinking etc etc) the better your shot of living a long healthy life. Does it ensure it? no, just gives you your best shot. Does doing the opposite ensure cancer or early death? no, but it definitely increases your odds. You have to live life, but live as healthy as you can for what you can control. Life and health are too precious not to care. Gorw em big guys, Jim

5/14/2004 5:06:07 PM

Long Island,New York

I've found this to be a fun thread....but I've seen enough. I'm tired of "organic spam"...constant commercials for Fertrel, Agro-K, Dripworks etc. Im tired of anti-chemicals preaching and the poison label on everything not "organic". I've only seen "responsible use" from Tremor...and I agree with the good doctor above that GENERALLY SPEAKING the ones here --learning and reading-- are more responsible in thier chemical usage than Joe Tomato-grower down the street. Today CANNOT be compared to 35 years ago where people "washed" thier homes with DDT and Chloredane.
But, there will always be topics where an "eccentric" will take over and I guess we have to live with it. Its like those vegetarians and animal lovers with leather shoes, and fur coats....and tree huggers in SUV's...and rich tree hugger lobbyists that use thier personal jets to fly from California to NY for a one day conference to complain about excess fuel consumption by SUV's. Yup...I got my license, I'm responsible, and responsible use is the way to go..............G

5/14/2004 5:17:13 PM

Independence, MO

Joe who?

5/14/2004 6:12:19 PM

Pulaski Tn blkcloud@igiles.net

Joe Tomato-grower down the street.

5/14/2004 6:53:32 PM

Long Island,New York

He lives on everyone's block.......

5/14/2004 8:34:40 PM

Ottawa, Ohio

I agree with Tremor. I'm also tired of people trying to scare people into believing something. The Presidential Elections do enough of that. Let's see the DATA.....
Anyway, to much of anything could be bad for you....

If every farmer was organic, and they all spread enough manuer for corn production we would still have nitrogen in the streams...

5/14/2004 9:05:10 PM

Hobbiton New Zealand

Over dosing with organic fert can cause some long lasting effects and this is proven
Recomended rate for chicken manure is 2500kg per hectare or 250grams per meter
appling 300000kg per hectare or 30kg per meter has long lasting effects on when the neighnours talk to me again it was not my fault the wind blew there way for a couple of weeks.
The smell was something to really talk about.
Steve and Kyle I read all you say I think you do nothing but help people with pumpkin problems

5/15/2004 3:40:29 AM

northern indiana

Well It seems that Mr.Bumpy has gotten what he wanted, a nice long thread of riled up growers. But lets get real here on 2 points.
#1 If you don't read the lable and follow the directions exactly anything bad that happens is YOUR fault!
#2 The amount of product purchased by growers (due to their recomendations here) does not even cover the time it takes to go through and make posts and sales ect. Unless I am very mistaken that is.
We are a small number of people and buy product in very small amounts compared to what tremor deals with on a daily basis. This would seem to me to amount to sales that are not "worth" the time to deal with. If he sells to a grower from here I would think that he takes the time to do it out of a desire to help a fellow grower rather than a quest for profit. I am not saying that he hasn't made any money through his work at this site, I am merely saying that This would be a lot of work for not alot of profit.
And while I am not about to take the time to search for it, I have seen tremor warn people to be careful with certain products for various reasons. Even products he sells. I have seen him warn people away from products he sells.
Eric

5/15/2004 7:42:29 AM

Roanoke Il

I think Steve has done a good job helping growers with fungicides and insecticides thanks Steve. I really don't think Mr.B was taking a stab at your Steve, Kyle But he does bring up some good points watch what you are using in the patch be careful if you are using a new product and have concerns ask Steve Mr.B doc what are the pro's and con's on using the product. Thats how we will help each other reach our goals everyone has something to contribute thats what makes big pumpkins the best site on the web. mark

5/15/2004 7:46:00 AM

northern indiana

Sorry Southern that didn't come out right. I was reading some of the posts for mental refrence and kinda left you out. I should have said Kyle and Steve.

5/15/2004 7:47:06 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Are You Guys done Yet? :0)
Seems that possibly no one seen the original"first blood" statement, A statement I made from facts I have gathered.No, I won't repeat the statement, I had no intention when it was made for confrontation of any type. Merely a statement, base in fact, Believe it or not. As far as defining the term "fact", Why would any statement made either by myself or anyone be anything other than acquired knowledge, did either I or Steve do the testing...NO, therefore, any statement made is hear say. And the studies, Kyle these results, albiet from small test groups, were from human subjects, not mice,guinea pigs,rabbits or dogs, of which the studies for one of the products(Merit)were conducted on. Not to worry, Bayer is currently petitioning to use human test subjects,Which will come to pass. And addressing the remark mentioned of liberal lobbyists financing this pro-organic propaganda, What was Bayers "net" profits last quarter Steve, I doubt any contributions neared that amount.All the facts are out there and I believe that this thread has generated a positive response, despite your aggressive stance.More to follow

5/15/2004 10:49:17 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Now to address this issue, and some of the responses.
I myself have found both Steve and kyle's info helpful, and there was no attempt to demean either of your integrity, The statement of Licensed Applicator, Article:The State of Minnesota is offering private pesticide applicators the opportunity to take their certification exam online. From the website, applicators can download their study materials, pay for exam with a credit card and complete the exam from the comfort of their own home or office.
Article included web address, I won't. Eccentric, I will admit to that, tree-hugger, activist, NO.
Jimr, Good advice for all users of ANY pesticide..CHEMICAL or OrGanic, keep up the good work, and I do hope dearly that Your statements made some people think about how they use their chemicals.
MarkP, Thank you forbeing the only one who had enough insight to realize what my goal was. Tremor, Southern, it is the individuals choice as to what they use, and I Have no Idea why you reacted like you did to my initial statement, I am sure that as stated by hapdad that such a small amount of use generated here will not as YOU stated Affect your "livelyhood" I believe the only way sometimes to Make people think for themselves is through controversy.
ONE MORE THING...I WILL BE AT THE SCALES, this Year

5/15/2004 11:01:39 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Here again is the classic someone has to take responsiblity for their own actions...Yes i try and do as much organic as I can but when it comes to these plants nobody can tell me a dose of 10-10-10 in spring and some fungicide and insecticide according to labeled instructions aren't the way to go...I thank Steve and Kyle for all there input and also listen to Doc quite a bit...so I try and keep it all in perspective...have a great season and Grow em Big!

5/15/2004 11:22:08 AM

Knopp, Germany

dang chuck, ain't cya post in a while, how ya doin? great thread, but i fear 90% of the hobby growers out there do not have any idea, sorta like a presidential election...lol

5/15/2004 12:49:05 PM

J.maness@yahoo.com

Whatever you do... DON'T drink the KoolAid!!! :)

5/15/2004 2:52:50 PM

North Ga

I'm glad not everyone is on the same wavelength what a boring planet this would be!! LMAO!!!

5/15/2004 3:19:05 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Bayer 1st quarter results are here:

http://www.press.bayer.com/News/News.nsf/id/2004-0272

Business development at Bayer CropScience confirmed the gratifying upward trend in the crop protection market, with sales of the subgroup up by 4.3 percent to EUR 1,732 million. Currency- and portfolio adjusted sales were up by 16.2 percent. EBIT declined to EUR 379 million (2003: EUR 447 million). However, when adjusted for more than EUR 120 million in earnings contributions and divestment gains in the first quarter of 2003 related to products divested to meet antitrust conditions, EBIT was well above the level of the same period last year.

5/15/2004 3:29:22 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Thanks to all the kind thought & words. I hope this thread isn't going to harm anyone.

I usually refrain from commenting negatively on claims of organic pest management despite my feelings. This will continue unless I see published peer reviewed studies that either dispel or confirm a response one way or the other. The real findings of real science I will always share freely.

For the record, I have tried to manage Powdery Mildew with Sea Kelp & Calcium & had absolutely zero success. So personally I cannot recommend this approach for our area.

If organic measures prove effective at managing AG pests & diseases, I will be just as pleased as the next grower. Honest. But with only 2 plants in the ground, this is not going to be the test plot. Let not my concerns discourage those who have space from trying.

I sincerely wish all growers, Organic, conventional, & (like myself) combination management protocols, all the very best results this year & hope whatever we choose to do works well.

But please let's stop speaking poorly of other grower's decisions & techniques. We can & should emphasize safety. We are all responsible for the decisions we help others make. Especially those that fail & end seasons on the short.

Steve

5/15/2004 8:01:43 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Most *issues* that arrive on this site are due to lack of communication and misinterpreting typed messages and responses via e-mail, posts, what have you.
Same thing here...let it go, move on, yesterdays news, kiss-kiss, we got pumpkins to attend to.

5/15/2004 11:33:10 PM

porterville, calif.

I try to take what Doc, Tremor and Southern and tailor what they say into my needs for my plants. I try to be all Organic as I think is best for my garden. Im in a MastrGardener program here in Calif. We stress IPM managemeant here. I beleive that almost everyone that comes here wants everyone to succeed with the plants that they are growwing. We might not always agree with what each style of gardening we all do. But we all need to show respect and maybe say ok you want to do it that way thats OK. I come here to learn, to meet really good people and to have fun doing this. Because if you take the fun out of it what good is it doing you? Boy do I have alot to learn. Lets have fun and be wise about what we all do in our gardens and what we say here.

5/16/2004 1:25:02 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Location(area) is a major factor in powdery mildew control:Contary to popular belief, powdery mildew generally does not require free water to establish and grow. Infection can actually occur on dry leaves. Warm temperatures and shady conditions encourage the fungus to grow and spread. The optimum temperature for infection is between 68 to 77 degrees F and relative humidity between 40 to 100% is sufficient for the spores to germinate.Air flow and ventilation will discourage mildew growth. Powdery mildew thrives where high rates of nitrogen have been used. High nitrogen promotes tender leaf formation, causing dense stands that are more susceptible to infections. Adequately fertilize but avoid stimulating succulent growth. Organic fertilizers or slow-release formulations of lawn fertilizers are good choices. There are many organic and chemical routes to go, Here is a link for soeme I use successfully:
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/powderymildew.html

5/16/2004 9:59:36 AM

Ohio

I love you guyz,lol

5/17/2004 6:17:34 AM