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Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I would like to have some discussion on this topic. A few years ago it was accepted pratice to heavily use soil applied water soluables. A few very successful growers have told me to back way off on them. One of the issues is how much solution is enough at a given time for each plant. I have seen lots of information about giving specific grades at various times but not a lot of "how much"
Heres what I have been doing:
At transplanting: about 1 gal of 10-52-10 solution per plant
May, 1 gal 10-52-10 per plant/ week in a single dose
June, 2 gals 35-5-10 per plant/ week in a single dose
July-mid Aug, 5 gals 20-20-20 per plant/ week in a single dose.
Mid Aug to mid sept, 5 gals per plant 5-10-30 per plant
The solution is applied along the main vine with a good quantity applied right around the main stump.
Some growers are telling me that is way too much and that I am burning my roots. I realize that as I add further manure and compost that the available nutriants increase substantially and the need for highly available nutriants as in water soluables is reduced. As of now for this year I plan to continue with the 10-52-10 treatment early on as I have cold clay soils and Phosphate is usually limited in availability early on. From there I think I will reduce from last year. I am going to drip tape irrigation as well for this year and I can apply them through the tape. All thoughts on the subject are apreciated.

2/22/2006 8:59:44 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Don't use much (if any) of the stuff myself so am not really sure. I use some 10-52-10 once during the start of flowering and that is it!!

I recall reading a posting from Tom Beachy where he reported that he uses 1 lb of Peters 20-20-20 per month/per plant or 1000 sq ft.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=85021

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=78542

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=39689

2/22/2006 12:43:22 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I recall reading that Mike Frantz used a lot of 20-20-20 to grow his 2004 Iowa state record pumpkin. In 2004 used a little 15-30-15 in early season, then swithced to Miracle Gro tomato food 18-18-21 as a foliar spray. In 2005 I swithced to Schultz tomato food 18-18-29 for later season as a soil drench. Usually about 3 tbsp per plant in 5 gallons of water every 5 days. The higher K might have combined with the heat and made my pumpkins mature too fast last year. I will still use some, probably as a foliar spray at lower rates just to keep things growing.

2/22/2006 1:33:10 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I'll start a firestorm of hate mail but here goes anyway.

It make no difference to the plant if the necessary mineral nutrients come from soluble Peters/Miracle Grow/etc or if it all come from organic manures & compost.

Let me say that again.

It makes no difference to the plant at all. NONE.

But this assumes that neither the organic soil reservoir nor the plastic bucket toting grower cross the line at critical times.

There is plenty of good to say about the biodiversity of living soils that are not going to benefit one singe bit from using synthetic soluble NPK ferts. The soils living constituency might even be damaged by their use (if salty or excessive). But the plant won't know or care 2 hoots unless a pathogen decides to move in. This can be delivered by manure/compost or the result of destroying good bio-diversity with synthetics. It's a crap shoot.

One thing is for sure. A nicely amended high organic soil doesn't need much if any soluble fert. Those who do combine both disciplines run the risk of losing it all. Those that don't dabble a little usually fail to meet their fruits full potential. sigh

How's Alan put it?

2/22/2006 2:16:04 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I'm generally inclined to agree with Tremor but isn't the concern that you have salt deposit buildups from long term use of chemical fertilizers?

2/22/2006 3:11:23 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

That can happen. But most workable soils leach salts faster than smart growers would apply them. This isn't always true as problems can occur in some areas.

2/22/2006 3:20:26 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I guess I should clarify how much soluables I have been using. I generally follow manufacturers recomendations for dilution. In a five gallon pail of water I would disolve aproximatly 3-4 cups of fertilizer. Over the season (2005) I would have probably applied 30 lbs of fertilizer to my patch of 4000 sq ft. In terms of total salts I don't think this is over application however now that I have improved my nutriant levels and OM levels (now around 10%) I expect to reduce the use of water soluable significantly.
I agree with Tremor, that plant knows not the source of the nutriants however comition AG's are luxury feeders. The goal is to provide enough evailable nutriants at all times. the question is when is it too much?

2/22/2006 4:51:24 PM

Western NY

I haven't used water solubles since 2000 or 2001.

2/22/2006 8:38:22 PM

maine USA

Tremor writes: One thing is for sure. A nicely amended high organic soil doesn't need much if any soluble fert. Those who do combine both disciplines run the risk of losing it all.
I found that comment very interesting, can you explain why this is the case, because I am planning to do both [or was lol. thanks Kathy

2/22/2006 10:20:31 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The addition of large amounts of organic materials will in time provide enough nutrition for the plants that supplemental fertilizer can push the growth beyond the safe capacity of the fruit. Then the pumpkin explodes or splits.

The first year in a new patch most growers can get away with combined practices. This because the added organic materials haven't yet decayed into stable organic matter. But after a couple years of constant additions, we need to start dialing back on the solubles.

There may still be benefit to be had in the early season when soils are still cold. Bacteria will not have resumed activity so the soils natural Nitrogen may be in short supply. But after things warm up, we would thus back down or stop using soluble Nitrogen.

The key is learning to read the plants & getting to know how your own soil reacts to your inputs. There is no hard & fast rule to grow by that would apply to all growers.

2/22/2006 11:58:50 PM

Mocksville, NC

OK IM GOING TO START A SHIT STORM!!!!
Not really very sound advise! last year i was 50/50 with new soil, this year will be 80/20 with much improved soil hopefully next year i'll reach 100% Organic.
Rog.
This will be based off soil reports that are balanced ihad to start with decomposed granite.

2/23/2006 9:53:51 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

OK....My statement so far could be labeled "stirring the pot" by many folks. Why?

Because I think it is constructive to start "trouble".

But it isn't trouble I'm after. I believe that we can only learn by debating in public. I'm an educator in my professional field. But showing Power-Point program & reading scripts isn't educating. Answering questions isn't educating. Having someone answer your questions should never be confused with "learning".

I was just "challenged" (in a really nice way) to explain why my statement so far are not consistamnt with the hugely successful Agro-K program.

My next post will be the email I sent in response to that friendly challenge.

2/23/2006 10:10:09 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I’m not trying to start trouble either. Rather I like when folks debate the different aspects of fertility so that they gain a greater understanding of why the dynamics of soil fertility change & why they need to consider all of these differences before they make up their minds what’s best for their own situations.

It isn’t luck that causes folks to set record breaking fruit using the Agro-K program. It is because it is a great program, but that alone doesn’t grow record breaking fruit. Personally I believe we could grow equal fruit in dead sand hydroponics if we had the right container & pump systems. Indeed many huge fruit are grown using salty synthetic junk fertilizers. But the risk factors go WAY up so most folks shouldn’t try the chemical approach unless they are very careful. Most won’t be.

I think that the huge success of Agro-K speaks to the tremendous dedication that is required for the grower to apply every day. Being with the plants every day means that the dedicated grower is making observations every day. So the Agro-K grower obviously isn’t going to miss anything. Plus making daily applications of these fine ingredients insures a much reduced risk of Powdery Mildew or other fungal pathogen from gaining a foot hold on the plant. Hence the need for fungicides is much greatly reduced. So the plants never have to endure the potential damage that fungicides & insecticides *can* cause.

This is why I wholly endorse the Agro-K program if the grower can make the time to stick with it 100%.

______continued_______

2/23/2006 10:16:08 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

A side bar: The best teacher that I know is a guy named Stan Pope. Yet he has no teaching degree. Stan is a member of the Boy Scouts of America (so am I as a cubmaster & District Trainer).

Stan never answers a question directly. He believes that giving out answers does nothing to teach true understanding. So he continuously asks more questions to get the Boys & their Leaders to keep thinking their way through a problem. He’ll steer them back on course if their thoughts start to get too far from the correct answer. But he wants them to discover the truth on their own.

Stan is constantly trying to cause that “light bulb” moment when the person having trouble suddenly knocks themselves in the head & says “Ah Hah!” That is when a true understanding arrives in the persons head.

That’s hard to do when we’re typing on a message board forum. We can’t see if the reader is really having an “Ah Hah” moment. All we can do is hope for the best & try to keep people thinking.

I think I’ll share this email on Big Pumpkins because I want folks to understand what my reasoning is for starting debates in a public forum. It's not because I like fighting. It isn't to try to "beat" someone in a debate. It is to hopefully make people discover the truth by THINKING PROBLEMS THROUGH.

Steve Jepsen

2/23/2006 10:16:13 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

.


Any questions?



Steve

2/23/2006 10:20:34 AM

Antigonish,Nova Scotia,Canada

Thanks for all of this, Steve. You have given me lots to think about.I am curious as to final size of prize pumpkins and squash that have been grown 100% organically!????...are there links or recent posts on this subject????Martin once told me that a heavy pumpkin can be grown without any chemical fertilizers.....the diffifulty is trying to do it without any pesticides or fungicides!!!Any comments????...cheers to all,
Bill

2/23/2006 10:54:18 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I wouldn't know for sure the largest organic pumpkin but I seem to recall the results of a municipal compost program in Canada a couple years ago where the largest pumpkin was around 400 lbs.

Maybe someday the GPC or the AGGC can keep a separate category for organically grown Pumpkin records. Perhaps even this website can keep a records page.

The goal of every grower I know is to see their fruit grow to it's genetically predetermined *potential maximum size*. We cannot really *push* a fruit to do things it is not capable of doing (within reason). We just have to prevent factors from limiting the potential.

So our goal should be to never allow anything to *limit* the factors that regulate growth.

A diseases is anything that interrupts growth. IE fungus, insect, chemical injury, or any other environmental issue not conducive to ideal growth. We can throw water & nutrient shortages into this definition too just to simplify things.

So....Martin (Riess?) was correct. IF no nutrient shortage is ever present at any time during the growing season then the plant will always cruise along at it's fullest potential rate of growth with no input from the grower.

However the Nitrogen (most likely limiting factor) exchange in soils is very complex. The things that limit it's availability are (primarily) the volatile dynamics such as bacterial population (impacts availability by altering solubility or exchange-ability), root structure (conductive surface area), pH, soil aeration (oxygen), temperature, moisture, etc. That's a lot of dynamics to consider!

Nobody needs to use anything if they get very lucky & all of those dynamics align by themselves! But since we never seem to get that lucky we have BigPumpkins.com.

All sorts of tools are available to determine how our plant is feeding. Tissue analysis when compared to soil analysis reports will tell us if the plant is *wanting* beyond our own capacity to grasp visually what is happening.

What do yo

2/23/2006 12:34:39 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Darn 2000 word limit.

Whay do you think has been the most limiting factor your plants have encountered? That factor is everone's highest priority.

2/23/2006 12:36:11 PM

Ray, North Dakota

I am going off of my soil test and applying some dry urea (46-0-0), and some ammonium sulphate (21-0-0-24) to free up some nutrients already in the soil. Then some light solubles with kelp.

2/23/2006 1:07:04 PM

Colorado

I agree with Tremor on the use of the Agro-k program. This was my second year growing. I followed the spraying schedule religiously and found that I was much better in-tune with what was going on with the plant and had zero PM or disease problems and never had to use any fungicides or pesticides.

2/23/2006 1:55:21 PM

Western NY

my 1407 was grown completely organically, EXCEPT i used warrior-t as the insecticide, and liquid sevin once or twice. no fungicides.

fertilizing was done with the agro-k program, horse manure, fish, and seaweed. i used a very small amount of urea early on, i'm not sure if that's organic or not.

2/23/2006 2:00:23 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

So it sounds like the greatest results are being delivered when the grower strikes a delicate balance between what is available organically & what is needed even when mother isn't cooperating.

I'm not willing to accept that there is a single cookie cutter program that will fit all growing needs unless the soil is completely eliminated from the equation (hydroponics). But a good low-dose foliar program (like Agro-K or similar) in combination with sensible soil amendments is how the best fruit are making it onto scales nowadays.

If daily applications can be scheduled & temperature limits permit this approach, then leaving a barrier between the plant & the pathogen laden air every day is an awesome way to control foliar diseases & meet minor fertility shortages at the same time. COOL.

2/23/2006 2:32:39 PM

Ray, North Dakota

Urea is the dry version of Anhydrous Ammonia (82-0-0), which is a by-product of gasification. So not organic.

2/23/2006 3:25:12 PM

Colorado

Herbie, My wife accuses me of producing a "by-product of gasification"LOL----Kirk

2/23/2006 3:33:30 PM

Ray, North Dakota

heh heh. BUT....who has grown a monster pumpkin WITHOUT organic fertilizers? Manure not included.

2/23/2006 5:03:24 PM

Rhode Island

i know one thing for sure. if we can bottle up the gasification being distributed inside that van heading for niagara next friday i wont need any organic products this season . AT ALL
on a serious note. we can all learn a lot from postings such as this. great to read something informative rather than opinionated?
good topic

2/23/2006 6:45:57 PM

San Diego

went all organic last year besides my insecticide merit applied once. Didn't even use fish and sea weed and I had the best plant and pumpkin growth ever in 5 years of growing. I live in high heat and I like this approach. I used synthetics before and I had salt problems.

2/23/2006 7:21:01 PM