From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I got my soil test back this morning! It is in PPM
OM 8.1
Bicarb P 71
Bray-P1 185
K 214
Mg 385
Ca 5330
Na 29
PH 8.0
CEC 30.5
Base saturations
%K 1.8
%mg 10.5
%Ca 87.3
%Na .4
% P saturation 72
Al ppm 330
k/mg Ratio: 0.17
ENR 94

I think things look real good. This is a heavey clay soil and is fairly tight. The patch is about 4000 ft2. I have added 65 lbs Sufate of potash magnesia (sul-po-mg)and 55 lbs kelp meal. The soil is a limestone base and is naturally high in calcium. I was thinking about adding some sulfer to try to lower the PH somewhat. Last years soil test indicated a high sulfer level so I'm a little concerned about trying this. The lab is still recomending more P and K. I'm concernd about this because as I continue to add more manure the test may become excessive. I will be using large amounts of water soulables, fish, sea weed and other folier ferts this season. all comments welcome
John

5/20/2005 11:07:54 AM

Montoursville, PA

If you used the same testing service I believe I would call for clarification. Several things in your report do not seem that they could exist together...for instance high sulphur and high PH.

If you respond tell how many square feet your 55 lbs. of
sul-po-mag went on. This may be counter productive. Your mag to cal. ratio is, in the ball park, but more mag. is believed, to be going the wrong way, by some advisors.

I sure hope Steve takes a shot at advising this post.

5/20/2005 11:54:24 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Last years sulfer test was 40 PPM. My patch is roughly 10% of an acre I therfore have applied the equivelent of 650 lbs/acre of sul-po-Mag or 140 lbs/ acre of potash and 70 lbs/acre of Magnesium and 140 sulfer. (Sul-Po-Mag is 0-0-22-11mg-22S) My Mg test last year was 175 ppm. It came up a lot in one year. Given the application of manure (aprox 20-25 tons) and a similar ammount of sul-po-mag last year this still seems like a large increase. I have to assume that last years test was a little under stated or this years is a little over stated. Anyway, I'm looking to keep my K to Mg ratio between 1:1 and 1:2 so I should be ok as my K level will continue to increase with continued application of manure. I am also thinking of applying 30 lbs of MAP (11-52-0) equivelent to 150 lbs actual P /acre. I am also planning to apply about 30 lbs Ammonium Sulfate. This will give me an additional 60 lbs/ acre N and 70 S for a total S application of 210 lb/ Acre.
I was hoping that the increase in OM would bring down the PH a little. So far this has had no effect. As the manure continues to decompose it may lower it some what The soil sample was taken at the same time both years.

5/20/2005 6:21:24 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

I hope Steve gets in on this one too!..I buy a product called Hollytone to feed the azaleas and dogwoods around the property...any acidic loving plant I never thought to read the bag just have done it for years...would something like this work also?

5/21/2005 9:00:35 AM

Montoursville, PA

Hollytone is a good product. I was thinking along the lines of Holly Care by Fertrell. All organic as well. 4-6-4
Either goes nicely with the high percentage of manures or elements of compost being added.

There is a possibility that the high volume of organic matter is just not fully adjusted. All organic additives come down to about 7.0 PH when nicely reduced to humus.
My guess is that composting is still under way in this patch.

I can not speak to the values of chemical additives. My feeling is that there is more than enough of everything in the basic soil package. When it is fully composted and working good it should enable you, to root a telephone pole and double its size.

My belief is that heavy applications, of chemistry will only knock down the biological content that you need so badly, to be up and working, to bring your additives, to their highest quality.

That being said I would work with the fish molasses application, to perk up the biology, to it's maximum ability. Fish will give you about 4% - 6% nitrogen slow release. This exceeds the actual use factor, of the pumpkin plant and will support your process of getting ballanced out.

A twenty pound application of either organic product won't hurt anything if you feel better adding something. I know we are trained by association and practice to uncork a bottle and fix things right now. This is often not needed and often does more harm, long term, than good.

Everything else I can see is already available, in amounts greater that the plant can or will use.

5/21/2005 11:26:46 AM

Montoursville, PA

In the meantime you could get ahold of an inexpensive soil test kit. Go up hill from the patch ten steps and test the native soil. The away distance would eliminate a possible leaching effect, from the patch, to the native soil. Also test your patch and look at the differences. This might calm your nerves and help better understand where you are at. No test will ever be perfectly right on the facts. They should all be considered as guidelines only.

5/21/2005 11:41:23 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I'd like to see that Potash come up into the 250PPM area especially considering the Calcium levels. It's really too late to consider Kelp Meals & other orgainc potash for this season. Fall of next year - horse manure, kelp meals, etc.

But this is now.

If you're still concerned about sulfur levels, then I'd skip adding SOP or SulPoMag now. The only sulfur free potash material for soil incorporation that would be available this year is the salty Muriate of Potash. I don't like making large corrections with this material shortly before or after planting. Too salty & fast acting. The plants won't need the potash until later in the season anyway. Why tempt early fruit maturation?

How's about borrowing a page from Al Eaton's book of tricks & using some potassium nitrate in the post fruit-set era? He applies it via overhead irrigation in high volume. A Teaspoon per plant per day is all he needs for a quarter pound per season. Due to the efficiency of this material, this might be all you'd need to avoid an in-season deficiency condition.

Another option would be low volume foliar potash using Agro-K's 0-0-24 Potassium Cabonate material.

5/22/2005 9:52:44 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I'm only concerned about the sulfer levels to the point that I don't think I can add elemental sulfer (Tigar 90) to adjust PH. My Mg came up faster than I expected or I likely wouldn't have added as much sulPoMag this year. This is excellent product and the potasium in the material is highly available. This ammount of sulfer likely won't cause any harm and may even help adjust the PH over time.
I am wonering about adding additional P. Even though my levels are now concidered high, the Lab is still recomending an additional application. As I plan to use water soluables and foliers all season, is this really necessary? I will contiune to add manureas and compost in the fall and I don't want to raaise the P and K levels into an excessive position. As well I am wondering about additional N. The 8% OM will provide lots of available n over the season but i'm not sure if the will be enough in June to promote top vine growth. My plan was to add some Ammonium Sulfate as soon as the hoop houses came down.

5/23/2005 10:04:53 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The lab is probably using a cookie-cutter style of recommendation for that P based on standard agronomic practices & your soils high pH. I wouldn't sweat the pH after Jack Larue's 2004 performance (1420 on pH 7.6 I think).

SulPoMag is great stuff I agree. SOP is my preferred source of potash. But as you have noted, the additional Magnesium isn't always needed. And AGs just don't draft Mg like they do K & Ca.

I agree that foliars are your best bet for this growing season & that major soil adjustments are best dealt with this coming fall.

Consider the use of non-pH adjusted Peat Moss for a slow & gentle pH drop in the years ahead. Coffee grounds, some sawdust composts (well decayed), & conifer needle mulches can also be used to nudge the pH down if used properly.

Aluminum Sulfate &/or elemental sulfur might be employed lightly as a side dress during this season. But go EASY.

5/23/2005 9:57:53 PM